HD-DVD and/or Blu ray anyone?

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HD-DVD and/or Blu ray anyone?

Post by Artemio »

I am interested to know if any of you is into these, in order to exchange opinions. I currently have the Toshiba HD-A1 stand alone player. I changed my mind about buying the Xbox 360 drive, not because it was bad at all since it is a steal for what you get, but because of my interest in audio quality.
Last edited by Artemio on Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by 87th »

I doubt I'll be supporting either until I buy a next-generation console, but since I'm likely to buy a PS3, it'll probably be Blu-Ray by default.
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Post by Artemio »

Indeed, that is the actual position I was taking before. I am not on either side, I wil accept both since I know that at least for a couple of years we'll have them around, and I don't want to miss specific movies just because I don't have the player. As you say, I'll have blu ray by default with the ps3 as well, even though we all know it is a bad blu ray player (as the ps2 in terms of dvd) it will be enough to get the job done meanwhile.
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Blu-Ray has it on paper, and will become the default HD format for most people once the PS3 becomes more widespread. It will vex me eternally if HD-DVD wins this battle, but what can one do? It all depends in my eyes on the PS3 and the porn industry. If Sony can ship enough units fast enough, they can get Blu-Ray in more homes faster, and the porn industry will want to use Blu-Ray to ship to all those PS3 Blu-Ray lasers sitting unused, as opposed to XBox360 HD drives sitting unsold on shelves.

I'm not really saying anything new, but Snatcher says it there - the PS3 will more than likely be a poor Blu-Ray player, but people will accept that as standard for a while, until stand-alones are cheaper or PS3 Rev. B is released. Audio- and video-philes will end up owning both players in some form or other, but that isn't the issue. As I said, the issue is how fast the PS3s are distributed and how hard their presence is exploited.

Isn't it strange to be on the verge of something like this, not to read about it in a textbook? I just hope it goes according to Sony (Apple Computer, Dell, Hewlett Packard, Hitachi, LG Electronics et al)'s way. But then there are production costs...

Argh! it all seems so rational when you think about it, but we really will just have to wait and see.

Sorry for rambling, fancied writing something you know.
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Post by Artemio »

You are completely right Jonathan Ingram, it all depends on who gets those players at user's homes firts. Right now HD-DVD has a very small advantage on that field, but I am also guessing that Sony will have the upper hand once all those PS3 are delivered.

The big problem is that Sony is yet to deliver, which I hope they do fast.

Regarding differences in formats, the only real ones are price and storage, with each one holding just one of them. It is sad that it all arrived to this, since both formats use the same video and audio codecs (same quality), the difference is just in the medium and, most important, who holds the standard and earns those royalties from now on.

Having put my foot into the field after investigating for some time, I went for HD-DVD for now.. since it offered the full experience at an accessible price and i could buy the player easily (as opposed to a PS3). The other thing that pushed me was audio formats, since as you might now they now use Dolby Digital +, True HD and DTS Master Audio... all of which are not supported by my current audio setup and need an HDMI 1.3 capable receiver/amplifier. The thing is that those formats are way better than DTS and DD, and toslink (the litle "fiber optic" cable used for audio) cannot transport them. I found out that this Toshiba player can convert all that to analog (full quality since it has some great DACs inside) and my receiver can simply work as an amplifier... Neither the PS3, stand alone Blu ray players or the xbox 360 (which does not even have HDMI to transport those formats, leaving you with DD only) have analog outputs, so audio was a big factor there. After the purchase I can assure you that I no longer use the internal decoders of my amplifier, since the player is way better at decoding dts and DD.

It will be a sad battle, that might end with both sides loosing. Consumers don't want to jump in and end up with a format that is dead, but neither will be popular unless people jump in. The PS3 is a very strong card here, but there are more XBox 360 HD-DVD drives out there now than PS3s, so they have to hurry (the xbox plus the add on are more expensive than a ps3, but people that already have a 360 regard the player as a steal at only 200 with a movie and remote included).

We'll have to see what happens.
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Post by Marc »

Everything was so much less complicated when all we had to worry about was a TV and a VHS player. 昔はよかったのぅ‥‥‥
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Post by Artemio »

Indeed, Osiris.

And something that is quite related: Ignorance is bliss. It is much more simple and you end up enjoying it easier...
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Post by OtakupunkX »

It all has to do with porn. Whichever becomes the most porn-friendly will be the dominant format. Just look at the Betamax vs VHS battle.
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Post by Missing »

Nothing is going to get me to upgrade from my standard DVDs. I'm sure HD really looks phenomenal when you've got the set-up to support it, but since I already appreciate the current capabilities of DVD and know little of what I'm missing otherwise, I think I'll survive without. The fact of the matter is, most of the companies beginning to re-issue their entire library of films -- all starting from the bottom of the barrel, I should mention -- onto the HD format weren't really doing all that an impressive job on the standard format. A standard Criterion DVD is just about guaranteed to always look better than a high-def Sony DVD. Maybe in a few years time, when the formats get off their feet, that will change. But considering that I already have a wide range of great films available to me on standard DVDs that I'm not liable to see any time in the near future on HD -- films that probably wouldn't look radically different re-mastered in HD -- there's no good reason for me to upgrade.
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Post by Artemio »

You are right Missing. It is true that most companies don't put the care into the transfers. You are also right that people that have large dvd collections are less likely to upgrade. I know I had the feeling. The thing was, I had a TV and Audio system... and wanted to test them. So I convinced myself to give it a try.

Nevertheless, it is a reasonable thing to do if you will continue to buy movies, since you can make all your next purchases in an HD format and continue to enjoy your current dvds (since the DACs for audio are much better, and the upscaling in Toshiba players is great). If you consider that you can buy a player and continue to buy movies for the same price (which is what I feel like) it is great, I know that I won't be changing these new movies I've bought for another format in at least 10 years. Since movies cost about the same, and you can get the add on for the xbox for the price of roughly 10 movies.. it sounded reasonable to me (although I ended buying the Toshiba one for audio reasons), in terms of not spending any more money in a lower quality format.

It is quote true that people like us that have big collections, are not willing to change.. but people that are just about to start, with small collections or that just bought a 1080p TV/monitor are more likely to change, since DVD looks less than good on one of them sets. i believ that will drive it forward, but it will take quite some time.

I must also add that the biggest differences are in color and audio, being the latter the big one. I stil need to get a 1080p set instead of a 1080i one to check full resolution, but not until a HD set that convinces me is out (I love 1080i on CRT for now)
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Just to reiterate you there Snatcher, the upscaling is good, I watched Constantine the other day on an HDTV with upscaling - very impressive, and certainly a good bridge-point for the transition.
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Post by OtakupunkX »

I'm not sure if I've mentioned this already, but while all of youse guys are fighting over HD-DVD and Blu-Ray I just got my hands on my first Betamax player.

I'm not even joking.
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Post by Artemio »

We are not fighting =)

I am with both formats and am enjoying the video and audio quality. Great find there anyway man, I loved those.
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Post by Henry Spencer »

Yeah, it really is a shame that one side will have to lose, since both HD-DVD and Blueray deserve to go on. :sad:
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Post by Missing »

From what I've heard, Blu-Ray has a lot more negatives than HD-DVD. I wonder how Sony would take it if their's ended up being the losing format.
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Post by Marc »

I think HD-DVD also has an advantage since it still has the "DVD" in there. The casual buyer would connect that with an improvement on regular DVDs, while Blu-ray might sound foreign to them.
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Post by Artemio »

You are right Osiris... I've seen people market blu ray as "Blu ray DVD platers/discs" for that reason.. and it sounds aweful =P

Even though I take no sides (I have discs in both formats, but only an HD-DVD player) I must add taht Missing is right. Blu ray has a lot to do.. their players don't support the advanced audio codecs, and every one of them has a downside at elast for me. I hope they get their act going, the extra space can be used in the future...
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Post by Missing »

What was the reason talk fell through when Toshiba and Sony were supposedly going to work together in creating a single format, as opposed to splitting off in two opposite directions? I know it was said at the time it would've taken a few more years had they waited in releasing a format that featured the qualities of both Blu-Ray and HD technology, but in the long-run, there's no doubt it would've been the better choice. That kind of stubbornness is another reason I refuse to upgrade. Because both companies can't see fit to compromise with one another and makes things easier for the both of them, it's only adding to hurting their consumers.
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Post by Artemio »

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Post by Marc »

Well, with Warners now siding with Blu-ray, I honestly think this format war will be over. Any other studio that switches camps and sides with HD-DVD will be on the receiving end of intense animosity for needlessly dragging it on any longer. I don't think any of them have the balls to do that. And honestly, these payouts are only a short-term deal. They should be in it for the long haul, and HD-DVD doesn't have the sales that Blu-ray does. Thoughts?

In any case, I think Sony made a wise and brave decision by including a Blu-ray player with the PS3. I'd wager they've been sitting in their ivory towers feeling very sure of themselves even amidst all the negative press the PS3 has taken over the past year. They surely saw it as short-term sacrifice for long-term gain.
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Post by Artemio »

I agree with you Osiris. It is a shame that Warner sided with Blu ray though, but I can see why... it is way more appealing to the masses even if it has proven to be the lower quality product so far. I know that will change and that in a year or two they will probably reach the point that HD-DVD has achieved. Toshiba was very brave to try and pull something like this off against Sony, and they did deliver better from the start.

I kind of imagined this would happen, but not as drastically or as soon as it did. That's why I bough Blade Runner in both formats at release date, so I would not end up hunting the version of the winning format years later.

It is true that releases this last month were brought almost to the same level as HD-DVD has offered for a good 8 months, in video, audio and extras quality. reaching profile 1.1 is what probably made Warner finally switch... the missing features and possibilities were what limited warner to release some titles in HD-DVD only, like Batman or the Matrix.

The thing that saddens me the most though is that BD has not offered the best encoding quality so far... low bitrates and AVC or MPEG 2 codecs instead of VC-1 which looks better (there are some VC-1 releases out there, such as Blade Runner, mostly Warner stuff). They also release a lot of movies with DTS-HD audio and that is not currently decoded by players (they default to the core DVD quality DTS track @ just 1.5 mbps), and their default standard is lower as well (regular DD against DD+, less than half the quality). I just honestly hope that they make proper releases, and that they don't do tons of clunky and slow menus as they have done with Java in most triple A releases (Disney mainly). I also feel sorry about those who bought BD players that don't have an upgrade capability... since ethernet is yet not mandatory on BD.

I also know most people don't care at all, and that they don't try to get the most out of the stuff they buy. Heck, they even compress their music to mp3 depriving it from life... But as a technology enthusiast it is sad to see the little guy that did everything right, which offered me the most juice when squeezing the stuff I bought, being left alone and the mainstream siding with the "stroong" one. For instance not offering analog outs to experience HD audio (lossless) makes people buy an HDMI capable receiver, whcih they either won't since they don't care or because it is expensive.

But the truth is that they had to side with someone in order to finish it already. Pardon my rant, but this comes form a guy who has 45 HD-DVDs and 30 BD because of the difference in quality. It is just like watching how the music is being badly digitized and mastered, to end up as mp3 and people no longer pay attention to it.. it is just background noise. And silly me is going back to vinyl... It is impressive the quality loss that masses are ready to let go for some convenience and practicality.. it is easy to forget how good stuff sounded when presented with commodity.
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Post by joeypete »

I have a stand alone Blu Ray (a gift to me). I also have a PS3.

Maybe I'd get the 360 HD DVD add on... Once 360 games hit big time in HD DVD form.

Of the few Blu Ray titles I have- I love! Movies kick ass in 1080p- for real!

Still, over all I just want movies.

When Disney sided w/ Blu Ray I knew it was over. The kiddie market is a force to never be underestimated. Warner too now...

We will all just use HD downloads 4 years out from now anyway...
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Post by Marc »

joeypete wrote:We will all just use HD downloads 4 years out from now anyway...
I think it'll be longer than that before downloads replace physical discs as the dominant media. At least 10 years. If Blu-ray does win over HD-DVD, that'll give it a nice period of dominance before HDD storage takes over. I even expect to see at least Microsoft or Nintendo using BD drives in their next console, which will surely make the guys at Sony smile. Then PS4 launches at $300, and it's a whole new ballgame...
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Post by joeypete »

I think HD downloads will be in about 4 years and we will still have DVD for just about everything else not HD. HD DVD and Blu Ray have not taken off yet with most people. By the time they get cheap as DVD is now we will have a better digital network to get all our video game/TV/ HD movie content delivered.

People are running out of shelf space to store all the DVDs they have now. LOL! With the HD discs too, just keeping coming and coming- the option to have it all on a few HDDs for streamed to you when you want it will seem more appealing. (IMHO)

If it takes off in Japan in 2-3 years we will get it in the west in about 3-5.

I got a HD Tivo and I don't see why (I think there are some company's working on it- like LG and Netfilx) having a set top box Tivo-esque to get all HD stuff on demand will not be a reality. You can burn the ones you want and with the HDD add on you can store all you want cheap.

XBL Marketplace has HD downloads already (people love that) and because USA broadband SUCKS so much in the next 3-5 years the billion dollar updates communication companies need to to the get the network up to par will make 20 GB per HD movie files a reality to get fast onto one's home box/HDTV set.

Many people use Media Center PCs and stuff like Sling Box now- so HD downloads will get more play soon I feel. If Apple does it with iTunes and such it will take off crazy fast for certain.

Still, its just my opinion... I've been mad wrong about many things before tech wise. LOL!

I do not think discs will go away- they will just trade places with the status the on demand downloads have now. (more and more start to download and fewer have discs as the 1st choice)
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Post by Artemio »

But you are missing a point that you make yourself. People don't care about most things. They won't care about downloads just as they don't care about HD. That's why Osiris says it will take longer..

You can't force feed mainstream. It takes it's time and stays loyal.. and people are starting to catch up with mp3.. it si mainstream now. They don't want more quality, as you point out they want accessibility. And thus I believe that disc media will bring us that care HD for the years to come and downloads will be of lesser quality and DRM driven.. thus scaring away the mp3 fed masses that are not used to pay for what they consume. HD will be even more so driven by DRM... since they want a slice of what you are paying, and discs warranty that. I bet that a big part of the decision to side over BD by Warner is by security.. and not by sales or quality (which we know people don't mind and that BD has been lacking).

Based on such arguments, I also believe that it will be at least 10 years. And I also believe we will be stuck with 1080p for that period, even if they are starting to push new resolutions on bigger sets (which are useless since scalers suck on mainstream hardware and there are no sources), like that new 150" 2K one. Even people that are in to HD today don't fully understand what they see on their sets. They believe that a 180p TV and a 180p tV player will get them all their quality 1080p.. and they are right, that's what they should get. But since 1080p TVs are not usually 24 Hz compatible.. a conversion takes place, and they are really watching 1080i 60 Hz. It is no real problem, but it is just to illustrate a point. If they were told so before buying, they wouldn't like that.. they'd want "Full" 1080p´... no interlaced for them (they've been told that interlaced is bad) but alas, back to the point...

Keep in mind how much time DVD took to start as mainstream. Most of us were already thinking about HD or using some sort of it on home consoles when mainstream started to catch up and buy it like they are doing today. Just think about CD as well... when it started and when it cached up.. and it is still the main (official) distribution method. Even mp3.. it was very slow to get it to the point it is now... I recall listening to mp3s recorded from a street fighter arcade on 1994-1995, and we used to dream about having a portable linux machine on the car with all our music.

These things take their time to find their places on people's homes. Of course younger generations catch up fast, but they need to grow up and buy their own stuff. And the ones that are growing up now are used to low quality stuff downloaded via the internet for free. That is the biggest problem the industry will find, and the main reaosn I believe there will be a disc based market for a while: The public that would like such a service won't pay for it, and the ones that can pay will want their media physically. A transitional period.

Oh, and BTW.. don't expect any games on the 360 to be on HD-DVD.
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