Best Kojima Game ?

Dedicated to Hideo Kojima, Kojima Productions staff and their games or collaborations.

What's Kojima's best game ?

Snatcher
2
14%
Policenauts
3
21%
MGS
2
14%
MGS2 SOL
3
21%
MGS3 SE
0
No votes
MGS4 GOP
4
29%
Z.O.E
0
No votes
Z.O.E 2
0
No votes
Boktai
0
No votes
Boktai 2
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 14

damasch
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Best Kojima Game ?

Post by damasch »

Hi dear fellows ! :grin:

I'd like to know your opinion. Which game is Kojima's best one ?

I cannot say much about this topic, since I've only played MGS1/2. I don't own a ps2 or a GBA and the emulation of Snatcher does not work well on my pc. :sad:

Anyways...I think Sons Of Liberty is his best game since it tells the greatest story in the history of entertainment.

To my mind Snake Eater is his worst work because it's to "mainstream-like". I really dislike the weak characters of the Cobra Unit.
"Even when I reached a hundred, even after I die, even as a ghost I'd still like to create games. It's so fun." (Hideo Kojima)
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Post by randomwab »

MGS3, it took everything gameplay wise in 2 and improved, had some interesting features, and a great story
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Jonathan Ingram
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

I'd be lying if I said anything other than MGS2.
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Post by Ninja Kurosai »

Why didn't you include Penguin Adventure, Metal Gear, or Metal Gear 2 in the poll? My vote goes to Metal Gear 2, with Snatcher right behind it.
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87th
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Posts: 2150
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Favorite Game: MetalGear 2: Solid Snake
Kojima games owned: METALGEAR SERIES
MetalGear (MSX2) [European]
MetalGear (NES) [European]
MetalGear (Famicom) [Japanese]
MetalGear 2: Solid Snake (MSX2) [Japanese]
Snake's Revenge (NES) [European]
MetalGear Solid (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Premium Pack (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Integral (PlayStation) [Japanese]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Sons Of Liberty (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance + The Document of MGS2 (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (Xbox) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PC) [European]
MetalGear AC!D (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater - Premium Pack (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear AC!D2 (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - Promo copy (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Digital Graphic Novel (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Portable Ops (PSP) [American]
MetalGear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots - Limited Edition (+ Bonus Disc, Soundtrack and 6" Old Snake Action Figure) [European]

SNATCHER SERIES
Snatcher (Mega CD) [European]
Snatcher (Saturn) [Japanese]

POLICENAUTS SERIES
Policenauts Pilot Disk (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (PlayStation) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]

ZONE OF THE ENDERS SERIES
Zone Of the Enders (PlayStation 2) [European]
Zone Of the Enders: The Second Runner - Special Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]

BOKTAI SERIES
boktai: The Sun Is In Your Hand! (Gameboy Advance) [European]
boktai 2: Solar Boy Django (Gameboy Advance) [European]

OTHER SERIES
Penguin Adventure (MSX) [European]
Kabushiki Baibai Trainer Kabutore (DS) [Japanese]

KOJIMA-RELATED GAMES
Konami Krazy Racers (Gameboy Advance) [European]
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) [American]
PSN: eighty7th
Wii Friend Code: 4890580757769739
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Post by 87th »

MetalGear 2: Solid Snake. The game pushed everything available to its limit.
MGS3 and Snatcher are tied second.
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Post by Jack »

I voted MGS2 SOL. The two Boktais are the only games I have not played yet of those listed above.
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87th
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Posts: 2150
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Favorite Game: MetalGear 2: Solid Snake
Kojima games owned: METALGEAR SERIES
MetalGear (MSX2) [European]
MetalGear (NES) [European]
MetalGear (Famicom) [Japanese]
MetalGear 2: Solid Snake (MSX2) [Japanese]
Snake's Revenge (NES) [European]
MetalGear Solid (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Premium Pack (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Integral (PlayStation) [Japanese]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Sons Of Liberty (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance + The Document of MGS2 (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (Xbox) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PC) [European]
MetalGear AC!D (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater - Premium Pack (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear AC!D2 (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - Promo copy (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Digital Graphic Novel (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Portable Ops (PSP) [American]
MetalGear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots - Limited Edition (+ Bonus Disc, Soundtrack and 6" Old Snake Action Figure) [European]

SNATCHER SERIES
Snatcher (Mega CD) [European]
Snatcher (Saturn) [Japanese]

POLICENAUTS SERIES
Policenauts Pilot Disk (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (PlayStation) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]

ZONE OF THE ENDERS SERIES
Zone Of the Enders (PlayStation 2) [European]
Zone Of the Enders: The Second Runner - Special Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]

BOKTAI SERIES
boktai: The Sun Is In Your Hand! (Gameboy Advance) [European]
boktai 2: Solar Boy Django (Gameboy Advance) [European]

OTHER SERIES
Penguin Adventure (MSX) [European]
Kabushiki Baibai Trainer Kabutore (DS) [Japanese]

KOJIMA-RELATED GAMES
Konami Krazy Racers (Gameboy Advance) [European]
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) [American]
PSN: eighty7th
Wii Friend Code: 4890580757769739
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Post by 87th »

I haven't played boktai 2 or Policenauts, yet, but my Saturn has been ordered and should arrive this week, so all should change quite soon.
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Post by ReasonWhyNot »

Snatcher, his best work? Be reasonable. It's only a point and click adventure. The title of masterpiece should only go to MGS1. That to me is one of the most important games ever created, not to mention one of the best.
Last edited by ReasonWhyNot on Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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87th
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Favorite Game: MetalGear 2: Solid Snake
Kojima games owned: METALGEAR SERIES
MetalGear (MSX2) [European]
MetalGear (NES) [European]
MetalGear (Famicom) [Japanese]
MetalGear 2: Solid Snake (MSX2) [Japanese]
Snake's Revenge (NES) [European]
MetalGear Solid (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Premium Pack (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Integral (PlayStation) [Japanese]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Sons Of Liberty (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance + The Document of MGS2 (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (Xbox) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PC) [European]
MetalGear AC!D (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater - Premium Pack (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear AC!D2 (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - Promo copy (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Digital Graphic Novel (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Portable Ops (PSP) [American]
MetalGear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots - Limited Edition (+ Bonus Disc, Soundtrack and 6" Old Snake Action Figure) [European]

SNATCHER SERIES
Snatcher (Mega CD) [European]
Snatcher (Saturn) [Japanese]

POLICENAUTS SERIES
Policenauts Pilot Disk (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (PlayStation) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]

ZONE OF THE ENDERS SERIES
Zone Of the Enders (PlayStation 2) [European]
Zone Of the Enders: The Second Runner - Special Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]

BOKTAI SERIES
boktai: The Sun Is In Your Hand! (Gameboy Advance) [European]
boktai 2: Solar Boy Django (Gameboy Advance) [European]

OTHER SERIES
Penguin Adventure (MSX) [European]
Kabushiki Baibai Trainer Kabutore (DS) [Japanese]

KOJIMA-RELATED GAMES
Konami Krazy Racers (Gameboy Advance) [European]
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) [American]
PSN: eighty7th
Wii Friend Code: 4890580757769739
Location: Zanzibarland
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Post by 87th »

ReasonWhyNot wrote:Snatcher his best work? C'mon, it barely constitutes as a game.
Bollocks
ReasonWhyNot wrote:Boktai was fantastic,
Bollocks
ReasonWhyNot wrote:...but I wouldn't call it his masterpiece. That honor should only be given to either MG1 or MGS1.
Bollocks

Snatcher is a really engrossing game with some great puzzles and little details all over it which helps the fantastic plot (Kojima's best, if you ask me) and the great sense of atmosphere throughout. It's perfectly viable for it to be called his best game (although, I wouldn't have said it myself).

boktai was one idea strewn over a full game, with ill-fitting stealth elements. It's the only Kojima game I've played that I didn't enjoy.

MetalGear Solid could easly be called Hideo Kojima's best game, but MetalGear!? Come on! It's only really good for it's concept. The game plays slowly and much of it is very forgettable, compared to the sequals. The script is also fairly bog-standard, so much so that Kojima Productions have now had to go back to it and flesh it out, just so it feels more like a MetalGear game. I'm not saying it's a bad game, I mean it's still one of my favourite overall games, and it has some great ideas, but it certainly isn't the best thing Kojima's ever produced.
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Yeah, while I enjoyed Boktai's concept for a while, I did put it down and not complete it. It just didn't grab me, I'd rather go and play Alundra or something.

Snatcher is a great game, and I can respect a decision for claiming it to be the best of his works, but I agree that Metal Gear isn't up there; as a concept it's great, but as a game it's inadequate. As ReasonWhyNot mentioned, it is like Citizen Kane or Birth of a Nation, and it should be honoured for being revolutionary, but that status doesn't automatically confer the title of 'best.'

Also, while I believe MGS2 to be the best of his works, MGS is my favourite, by far.
"But nothing is permanent... only change"
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87th
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Posts: 2150
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Favorite Game: MetalGear 2: Solid Snake
Kojima games owned: METALGEAR SERIES
MetalGear (MSX2) [European]
MetalGear (NES) [European]
MetalGear (Famicom) [Japanese]
MetalGear 2: Solid Snake (MSX2) [Japanese]
Snake's Revenge (NES) [European]
MetalGear Solid (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Premium Pack (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Integral (PlayStation) [Japanese]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Sons Of Liberty (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance + The Document of MGS2 (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (Xbox) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PC) [European]
MetalGear AC!D (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater - Premium Pack (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear AC!D2 (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - Promo copy (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Digital Graphic Novel (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Portable Ops (PSP) [American]
MetalGear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots - Limited Edition (+ Bonus Disc, Soundtrack and 6" Old Snake Action Figure) [European]

SNATCHER SERIES
Snatcher (Mega CD) [European]
Snatcher (Saturn) [Japanese]

POLICENAUTS SERIES
Policenauts Pilot Disk (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (PlayStation) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]

ZONE OF THE ENDERS SERIES
Zone Of the Enders (PlayStation 2) [European]
Zone Of the Enders: The Second Runner - Special Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]

BOKTAI SERIES
boktai: The Sun Is In Your Hand! (Gameboy Advance) [European]
boktai 2: Solar Boy Django (Gameboy Advance) [European]

OTHER SERIES
Penguin Adventure (MSX) [European]
Kabushiki Baibai Trainer Kabutore (DS) [Japanese]

KOJIMA-RELATED GAMES
Konami Krazy Racers (Gameboy Advance) [European]
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) [American]
PSN: eighty7th
Wii Friend Code: 4890580757769739
Location: Zanzibarland
Contact:

Post by 87th »

For me-

1- MetalGear 2: Solid Snake
2- Snatcher
3- MetalGear Solid
4- MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater
5- Zone Of the Enders: The Second Runner
6- MetalGear Solid 2: Sons Of Liberty/MetalGear Solid 2: Substance
7- MetalGear
8- Zone Of the Enders
9- MetalGear: Ghost Babel
10- MetalGear Solid: Special Missions
11- The Document of MetalGear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty
12- MetalGear Solid: The Twin Snakes
13- Penguin Adventure
14- boktai: The Sun is in Your Hand!

If MetalGear AC!D counts as a Kojima game, put it between Ghost Babel and Special Missions (yes, I actually enjoyed AC!D... beyond the plot, that is).
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Post by randomwab »

As much as i could say one game, like Snake Eater, which i did say, i cant actually pick one single Kojima game which i find the best, they al have elements that i love, locations in the games, there plots, a character, theres something in each game which i can say make it stand out from the rest, so no matter what i say, partially it would be a lie
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Artemio
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Post by Artemio »

I voted for MGS2 as the best of his works too, even though my personal favourite is Snatcher... and then MGS1 and MGS3, and even if Policenauts should be higher in my scale, I have to separate objectivvely both of my scales.
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Jack
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Post by Jack »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:Snatcher is a great game, and I can respect a decision for claiming it to be the best of his works, but I agree that Metal Gear isn't up there; as a concept it's great, but as a game it's inadequate. As ReasonWhyNot mentioned, it is like Citizen Kane or Birth of a Nation, and it should be honoured for being revolutionary, but that status doesn't automatically confer the title of 'best.'
He actually made a MG1 - Citizen Kane comparison, not a MGS1 - CK one.

Snatcher is kind of a troubled project, just the fact that a whole third act was added years after the first release shows that the game isn't well balanced. Add that the third act is mostly non-interactive and explanatory and you see that Snatcher is an earlier work that can't be considered Kojima's best.

But Snatcher was a major accomplishment compared to MG1. It's really the first game where Kojima's cinematic approach was put on full effort.

Policenauts is an evolution of the Snatcher concept that is virtually better in every department, especially the narration is more cohesive. It says a lot that with all the following Policenauts releases, Kojima didn't feel like changing anything substantial.

However, I'd probably rank Snatcher still above Policenauts for what it represented in 1988.

MGS series is where gameplay becomes finally as compelling as the story. I think MGS1 and MGS3 are on the same level in many ways: the are both excellent fiction stories. I don't think Kojima went mainstream with MGS3, he merely returned to the kind of MGS1 "suspension of disbelief" story.

The reason I think SOL is the best game he realised so far... With SOL Kojima played a game with the whole industry and the community of gamers and fans. He played with their expectations and shattered the wall between fiction and reality. SOL achieved something you don't see often in the games' industry: it generated controversy. Sequels are often made in a "bigger better faster" logic, and as a result, fans are always pleased with what they're feed.

SOL was excellent in every single game aspect (even more so than MGS3, as it featured lip synch and still is the oustanding PS2 technical achievement in many ways), but reviewers ans gamers were not easily pleased because of what SOL's message was. Whiners just wanted a classic sequel in the Zelda vein, with the usual hero and everything they were accustomed to. I really respect Kojima for not doing that in the moment of its greatest success, it was daring.

Now MGS3 (and MGS4) returns in the realm of fiction: we are given easy solutions about who the <B>Patriots</B> are, what happened to Meryl and such... In other words, we're back 100% in the fiction realm, to please fans. And in fact, all the reviewers were more than happy that MGS3 story "was not a mess".

I understand that this must be the way in order to continue a series that's going to be for a niche of gamers, I have nothing against this.

But still, I'm amazed by what Kojima dared to do with SOL. If he had made a game like MGS3 at the apex of popularity, and SOL in 2004, I would have seen it like a smart move to keep the thing fresh. But he did the most controversial thing he could do in a time when MGS2 was the most looking after product.

Of course, all of this would not matter if SOL despite its going against unwritten rules, had a share of fault or problems of sort. Luckily this is not the case, as everything is so damn excellent.

And that's the short story of why SOL gets my vote.
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Post by Artemio »

Jack... I could not write those words better, I think you just hit the nail in every one of your points, and I have very similar thoughts in all those aspects.
From the mathematical perspective, consciousness might be regarded as a second derivative of sensation.
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Post by Gin-Ryu »

MGS1.
About SOL even today I don't quite get what the <B>Patriots</B> not that I worry to much.
By the way didn't Kojima made some dating sim games?
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Post by Artemio »

Gin-Ryu wrote:By the way didn't Kojima made some dating sim games?
The policenauts engine was used on them. And he was producer/planner, which is not exactly "making"... Technically you could argue the same about ZOE, but we all know the level of invlvement was probably very different. And also that his former position as vp has him listed as producer in several other games (not these mentioned in the post).
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Post by ReasonWhyNot »

You've got a problem with Boktai, 87th? Didn't you say you hadn't even played the game?
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87th
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Favorite Game: MetalGear 2: Solid Snake
Kojima games owned: METALGEAR SERIES
MetalGear (MSX2) [European]
MetalGear (NES) [European]
MetalGear (Famicom) [Japanese]
MetalGear 2: Solid Snake (MSX2) [Japanese]
Snake's Revenge (NES) [European]
MetalGear Solid (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Premium Pack (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Integral (PlayStation) [Japanese]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Sons Of Liberty (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance + The Document of MGS2 (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (Xbox) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PC) [European]
MetalGear AC!D (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater - Premium Pack (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear AC!D2 (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - Promo copy (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Digital Graphic Novel (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Portable Ops (PSP) [American]
MetalGear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots - Limited Edition (+ Bonus Disc, Soundtrack and 6" Old Snake Action Figure) [European]

SNATCHER SERIES
Snatcher (Mega CD) [European]
Snatcher (Saturn) [Japanese]

POLICENAUTS SERIES
Policenauts Pilot Disk (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (PlayStation) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]

ZONE OF THE ENDERS SERIES
Zone Of the Enders (PlayStation 2) [European]
Zone Of the Enders: The Second Runner - Special Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]

BOKTAI SERIES
boktai: The Sun Is In Your Hand! (Gameboy Advance) [European]
boktai 2: Solar Boy Django (Gameboy Advance) [European]

OTHER SERIES
Penguin Adventure (MSX) [European]
Kabushiki Baibai Trainer Kabutore (DS) [Japanese]

KOJIMA-RELATED GAMES
Konami Krazy Racers (Gameboy Advance) [European]
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) [American]
PSN: eighty7th
Wii Friend Code: 4890580757769739
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Post by 87th »

ReasonWhyNot wrote:You've got a problem with Boktai, 87th? Didn't you say you hadn't even played the game?
When did I say that? I've owned it since it was released. I've even sent a scan of it here (it isn't up yet, for obvious reasons, though). I've never bothered completing it, though. There's only around 3 weeks a year where you can seriously consider doing something like that.
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Post by ReasonWhyNot »

I guess someone else said they hadn't played it. I just thought it was you.
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Post by Rick Deckard »

Maybe it was you.
Last edited by Rick Deckard on Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ReasonWhyNot »

Maybe it was.
Last edited by ReasonWhyNot on Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rick Deckard
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Post by Rick Deckard »

Ah. OK.
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Jack
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Re: Best Kojima Game ?

Post by Jack »

I'm necroposting on this long forgotten thread, because I'm curious to know if someone would change his/her vote in favor of MGS4 after having played it.

To me, MGS4 was a great wrap up, but the best remains SOL. What about you guys?
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Commander_AK-47
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Re: Best Kojima Game ?

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

I say MGS4. Its true that it had some story anomalies like EVA having as big a role as he did and getting the same wound from MGS3 over again (Which was a little overkill if you ask me) and in some peoples opinion
Spoiler:
Big Boss coming back at the end was bad too, I thought it was a Naked Snake move not an original Big Boss move.)
. But it had a solid story and nice ending. I loved it none the less.
Last edited by Commander_AK-47 on Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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