Kojima and his Chess Pieces

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Kojima and his Chess Pieces

Post by Snake Plissken »

Okay we all know the theorys about chess in each game, the chessboard snake was on in the MGS 1 art ect. And all these chess references in each game he makes, what you do guys think it all adds up to really?

Kojima's favorite film directors do this too, it's his little trademarks. You never know, maybe all his games represent once chess piece of his life making a play, get it? Passing on each game, information "pieces" ect.


Chess is a well balanced Bangkok pass time, as chess plays a part in the cold war lol of course, as does anything of war lol hahhaaha

As it plays a tight sequence in MGS2 lol
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look at the known enemies. Fatman, Ocelot, Vamp, Fortune, Solidus in that order

Fatman/Rooke, moves in vertical and horizontal streams on helipad, just like a Rooke would move.

Ocelot/Knight, while you dont actual fight him he moves in the L shape, take note after talking to Ames (when you switch to an AK) he moves in a L shape just like a knight. It isnt that hard to imagine ocelot on a horse either.

Vamp/Bishop, vamp moves in Diagonal lines, just like a Bishop

Fortune/Queen, she was even called queen by vamp on radio, gun allows her to shoot Diagonally and vertically (apparent in battle), she is invulnerable just like a damn queen in chess.

Solidus/King, he was called king by ocelot, and hes the leader of DeadCell

Olga/mercs, are all Pawns

BigShell, is the playing field/board/ Hexagonal chess board

Colonel/rules of the game/ Raiden cannot act outside of the rules of the game. The rules are thus the contol of the experiment/simulation.

GW/AI/<B>Patriots</B> represents the AI conrol of DeadCell in the game, Raiden is thus playing against the AI, in a simulated Chess game.
the importance of simulation when an AI plays chess is so that it has experience and can learn from its mistakes.

The other experiment going on is Raiden knowing/notknowing it is playing against an AI. That on top of the conversation between the AI an Raiden complete the TURNING test, comparing and deferentiating humanity from AI.

The Big Shell in general is a wierd/surreal type of structure. 12 hexagons connected to make 2 other hexagons rather unique. It seemed more than just Kojima wanting to use his favorite polygon but a basis for a surreal setting and a surreal plot.

-The second part was the lighting. The plant chapter was, simply put, bright as hell. This is unlike all previous MGS missions/experiences. Shadow Moses and the Tanker were both dark, cold and grim. The plant chapter was in broad daylight, which ended in a picturesque sunset. This is surreal because all past experiences, in the series, were quite different.

There are other unmentioned factors which go on but the basic idea is that the plant chapter was meant to be confusing and surREAL. The part that Kojima mastered when making this game is that over time the audience's initial perception and understanding of it will change and evolve with age. That's not easy.

this above was typed from a friend at my forum.

Heres why I think its a dream, that whole ending is faker than you can imagine, and don't blame it on frame rate and why so many people only came out of buildings at the end. And the fact that no one was paying any attention to raidan or solid snake at the end during all this, and the fact that rose comes out of nowhere, it all seems like a dream
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Post by DarkTetsuya »

You forgot to mention the President's comment he made shortly after you met him:

"Even if a pawn becomes a Queen, it's still just a playing piece."

Also it's "Turing test," surely you've seen the MGS2 Ending Analysys, if not go read it now.

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Post by Marc »

Yeah, and Vamp standing there sealed it for me: the Plant was a VR mission. Note how in the Tanker chapter, after you die it says "Game Over", but in the Plant chapter it says "Mission Failed".

Anyway, in the Japanese version, when the word pawn is used, the Kanji character used is the one for a chess piece, if I remember right. I think some subtle story elements are lost in the translation. You can't say things exactly the same way in different languages.
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Post by Snake Plissken »

DarkTetsuya wrote:You forgot to mention the President's comment he made shortly after you met him:

"Even if a pawn becomes a Queen, it's still just a playing piece."

Also it's "Turing test," surely you've seen the MGS2 Ending Analysys, if not go read it now.

DT
I assure ya I have :wink: Just fillin some insight :wink:
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Post by Ninja-boy »

This was a really long post so I couldn't take my time reading it sorry.
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Post by Warrior Bob »

I think it's worth a read-through... it was the difference between me understanding and completely shrugging off the MGS2 ending. Loved that article :)

But yeah, it took forever to read through. Ah well... I'm in college, I better get used to reading.
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Post by Marc »

You guys think that's long?? Heh, wait til you get older... :)
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

And after the mission is over, and the 'dream' or 'vr mission' is finished what happens? You turn off the console [VR Construct] and it's all over. I like that analysis. It fits well. And your point Osiris, about 'mission failed' and 'game over', that's a great one. All this just reminds how good MGS2 really is. I'm in a good mood now, thanks!
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Post by Marc »

Remember how in MGS1, the main game's continue screen says "Game Over", but the VR Missions say "Mission Failed". In MGS2 you even have code scattered around the place on the Plant chapter's continue screen.

I think the whole point of the Plant is an analogy for what happens to Raiden in the game. Raiden is following orders blindly from his superiors. The player is doing the same from the game. The Colonel even tries to get you to turn off the PS2 after he goes nuts. The game says do this and you do it (defeat Fatman, defeat Solidus, etc.). If you don't, the mission ends (or you'll never finish it if you just wander around doing nothing). If Raiden dies, the mission ends.

Also notice that after the virus starts to affect GW, it "affects" the PS2/VR simulation as well, with the Mission Failed being changed to Fission Mailed.

I think the Plant is also an analogy of how humans follow norms with only a few challenging society. Rose says it when she talks to Jack about how everyone is always following trends in all areas of life, people listen to what's at the top of the music charts, clothes are similar in many cases, etc. etc. Kojima's saying look at how we all conform. And then the final brush stroke in his masterpiece was making a game that was different and didn't conform to what everyone's expectations were.
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

[sorry for the quick reply, but I'm here]

I can't agree more Osiris, no matter how much that means I'm conforming =)

I never thought I truly did have MGS2 figured, and still there are questions, like any great work, but it's great to hear the opinions of some smart people.

But, with all of us pouring our thoughts into the internet, many theories for MGS2 have been created, some similar, some good, some not so good; my point being, is that just what Kojima wanted? This 'crucible' of data? Or is it the opposite? Are we resulting in limitless data, unbounded in quality, style, control. Perhaps, in his often-dubbed-role as a 'la-li-lu-le-lo', it is Kojima who will be filtering the information, for his ideas for MGS3... I'm just thinking aloud here.
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Post by Snake Plissken »

SOL is a dream, Snake eater is a nightmare plain and simple haahahaha
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Post by Artemio »

Indeed Osiris, your interpertattion is great my friend, I do like it. Specialy the message behind it, after all that message is touched several times.
The digital society furthers human flaws and selectively rewards
development of convenient half-truths.
Just look at the strange juxtapositions of morality around you.
here is a clear example of how it is envisioned that the media en general consensus rules what human beings do "individualy":
Building a legacy involves figuring out what is wanted, and what needs to be done for that goal.
All this, you used to struggle with. Now, we think for you.
The real problem, as Jonathan exposes, is how this data is growing and growing.. I bet that the main idea was to cerate discussion.. not to get more data that
Everyone withdraws into their own small gated community, afraid of a larger forum.
They stay inside their little ponds,
leaking whatever "truth" suits them into the growing cesspool of society at large.

The different cardinal truths neither clash nor mesh.
No one is invalidated, but nobody is right.

Not even natural selection can take place here. The world is being engulfed in "truth."
I think that describes all the theories right now.. the thing is, the web is a medium in it is quite easy to creat efalse information.. forumas are even worse in that matter... and what method is used nowadays if you want to find something? you use a search engine,.... what results you get? How can those be invalidated? How are those good ones preserved? tehre is no control.. an dcontent is now more related to indiviidual opinions and not a consensus...

I have always been againts history in some level, because it was created as a convinient truth that everyone agreed on.. but, do I want the millions of truths? what wil that create in an individual?
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

The different cardinal truths neither clash nor mesh.
No one is invalidated, but nobody is right.
Absolutely Artemio (I understand you're quoting MGS2 here) you're right. Think of the truths that never clash, and the invalidiation as 'survival of the fittest'. In the natural world, anything that isn't fit ("true") will be left behind by not being passed on in the genes. However, these 'truths' do get passed on because no-one invalidates them (i.e. doesn't mate with them) by deleting them.

But this of course brings us to your second point Artemio,
I have always been againts history in some level, because it was created as a convinient truth that everyone agreed on.. but, do I want the millions of truths? what wil that create in an individual?
History doesn't happen. It is recorded. Unless someone experienced an event, it didn't happen, in human terms. So, all history is distorted through the eyes and pen of the one who witnessed what is being recorded. So, Raiden's idea of the Shadow Moses Incident is the same as everyone's (the players'), a terrorist incident that occurred 4 years ago, whereas the 'truth' is that the <B>Patriots</B> orchestrated it. They control history, but as Snake says, "what you experienced is yours". I think perhaps that on some level we are asked to not search for the truth of the events, but to know we experienced them, and to think about what it was we felt.

[again, just thinking through my fingers here]
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Post by DarkTetsuya »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:And after the mission is over, and the 'dream' or 'vr mission' is finished what happens? You turn off the console [VR Construct] and it's all over. I like that analysis. It fits well. And your point Osiris, about 'mission failed' and 'game over', that's a great one. All this just reminds how good MGS2 really is. I'm in a good mood now, thanks!
*Gets a ! overhead* Like when GW-Colonel says 'shut the game off' its like it's trying to "wake you up"? Unless something else is going on... (I *still* can't imagine what happens between the time Raiden gets knocked out and comes to stark naked (which, isn't that another common 'dream' thing?) Something to think about...

EDIT:
Osiris wrote:Also notice that after the virus starts to affect GW, it "affects" the PS2/VR simulation as well, with the Mission Failed being changed to Fission Mailed.
Actually, that only happens during the Tengu ninja fight after you meet up with Snake again and reclaim your clothes and acquire the HF Blade. And even then, the mission hasn't actually 'failed' at that point, its merely designed to trick the player.

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Post by Warrior Bob »

Personally, I think Kojima just wanted to make a really good video game that was different from the other ones out there :)

Hehe, but that's no fun. I really enjoy reading everyone's interpretation and ideas about Metal Gear. A favorite pasttime is discussing the ins and outs of fiction, and this group makes for particularly good discussion. Kudos.
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Post by Marc »

"History is the past version of events that people have agreed upon." -Napoleon

The <B>Patriots</B> (in the case of our real world, the Illuminati) decide what is true and dictate the 'norms' in society. They create official history, and what is 'normal' and 'abnormal'. Then anyone who is different is labelled weird and crazy. This keeps people in line who want to step out and voice their views. So humanity is both the sheep and the sheepdogs, building our own prison as a result of this psychological fascism. Then we think we're all small and powerless, when the truth is we have all the power, not the people ruling us. Things can only be like this if we let them happen. We're only ruled by the elite because we let them. There are billions of us and a handful of them. They can't rule over the population physically, so they do it emotionally and mentally, making us believe what they want us to believe: that leaders have the power while the masses do not. They're manipulating our beliefs, and humanity is the imagination of itself.

DT, I meant to say that the Fission Mailed occurs only duing the Tengu fight, I didn't mean that it occurs after the virus starts and anytime you get a game over after that.
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Actually, that only happens during the Tengu ninja fight after you meet up with Snake again and reclaim your clothes and acquire the HF Blade. And even then, the mission hasn't actually 'failed' at that point, its merely designed to trick the player.
I think you are slightly overlooking the broader meaning of the 'fission mailed' that Osiris did earlier bring up, that it is GW beginning to fail. You're right, that the game over screen contiues normally after the Tengu battle, but you're outside of Arsenal then, and conceivably its effects are weakening on Raiden (assuming that it is Arsenal that is controlling the 'VR Mission' he is in). Also, it is fitting that it only occurs during the Tengu battle, as (if I'm not mistaken) a 'tengu' is a Japanese shape-shifting, mischievous sprite. It therefore works well that while you are battling them, the screen changes, and is trying to hinder your progress.

The 'fission mailed' screen appears whether or not you die, so it is irrelevant that it doesn't happen before or after - Kojima clearly wanted it noticed, so it must have some relevance. Saying 'it is merely designed to trick the player' undermines the (quite large) significance this episode has.
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Post by Snake Plissken »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:
Actually, that only happens during the Tengu ninja fight after you meet up with Snake again and reclaim your clothes and acquire the HF Blade. And even then, the mission hasn't actually 'failed' at that point, its merely designed to trick the player.
I think you are slightly overlooking the broader meaning of the 'fission mailed' that Osiris did earlier bring up, that it is GW beginning to fail. You're right, that the game over screen contiues normally after the Tengu battle, but you're outside of Arsenal then, and conceivably its effects are weakening on Raiden (assuming that it is Arsenal that is controlling the 'VR Mission' he is in). Also, it is fitting that it only occurs during the Tengu battle, as (if I'm not mistaken) a 'tengu' is a Japanese shape-shifting, mischievous sprite. It therefore works well that while you are battling them, the screen changes, and is trying to hinder your progress.

The 'fission mailed' screen appears whether or not you die, so it is irrelevant that it doesn't happen before or after - Kojima clearly wanted it noticed, so it must have some relevance. Saying 'it is merely designed to trick the player' undermines the (quite large) significance this episode has.
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Post by Artemio »

Snake Plissken wrote:my wife left me and all I got was this lousy t shirt.
何?
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Post by Ninja Kurosai »

GW could actually be producing these Tengu, this is why there are so many of them that sprout up and why they take so much damage(in my opinion)
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Post by Artemio »

There is one thing that would need exlanation if the whole plant chapter were to be VR....

and that is Solid Snake

We are led to believe that he was unexpected, an unnaccounetd variable in the equation... And he does appear to be human and outside the simulation, he fight fro being real.. for having opinions, for being more human... he even deminishes how real the Colonel is, you find yourself divided into trusting Snake and believing the Colonel. (I loved the feeling of confussion this creates, and how this is used....)
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Post by Snake Plissken »

maybe snake could represent raidan's fantasy and truth. Like in those old cartoons with the angel on shoulder, and a devil on the other. Snake is Raiden's hero, and he wishes for more than just to be him, but to fight along side with him like a warrior. When the ideal of snake and otacon being there, The <B>Patriots</B> and GW have do not even spot snake in the mission afterall raiden never tells the col. that he's with snake. GW though would show some suspicion in the matter of how raidan was acting ya know. And the fact that GW almost can see 2 steps ahead of other people.
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

To account for Solid Snake in the 'dream' theory of MGS2...

If we take Raiden to be the player, then Snake is what we really want to see, so it is fitting that since we have assumed the role of protagonist, Snake assumes the role of deuteragonist, simply out of necessity. We WANT Snake in there somewhere, so he has to appear, and appear he does, in a light much better than that of our 'hero' Raiden. I would draw your attention to 'Fight Club' here - to quote Tyler - (perhaps not accurately) 'I am everything you want to be' - literature shows us that the 'hero' can dream of being something different, better (check out Poe's extensive use of the doppelganger theme, amongst others) - and that is in comparison to us, or, Raiden.

Campbell's interjections of 'this isn't according to the simulation' could merely be to goad us on in our 'rebellion', compelling us to complete the mission á la the simulation.

I am drunk, so anything I write is therefore qualified by that.
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Post by Warrior Bob »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:I am drunk, so anything I write is therefore qualified by that.
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Post by DarkTetsuya »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:To account for Solid Snake in the 'dream' theory of MGS2...

If we take Raiden to be the player, then Snake is what we really want to see, so it is fitting that since we have assumed the role of protagonist, Snake assumes the role of deuteragonist, simply out of necessity. We WANT Snake in there somewhere, so he has to appear, and appear he does, in a light much better than that of our 'hero' Raiden. I would draw your attention to 'Fight Club' here - to quote Tyler - (perhaps not accurately) 'I am everything you want to be' - literature shows us that the 'hero' can dream of being something different, better (check out Poe's extensive use of the doppelganger theme, amongst others) - and that is in comparison to us, or, Raiden.

Campbell's interjections of 'this isn't according to the simulation' could merely be to goad us on in our 'rebellion', compelling us to complete the mission á la the simulation.

I am drunk, so anything I write is therefore qualified by that.
I guess in a way Kojima was fufilling many players' second fantasy; they've been Solid Snake, but they might have been curious what it would be like to fight alongside the legendary hero. The player only knows what he's told. (which is why we don't even know if the whole Raiden chapter was real in the first place, or just the 'inside Arsenal' sequence, or what)

On a side note, I think the 'm-mission' thing was designed to lead on that things aren't as they initially seemed...

Maybe I'm wrong... geez its like they should have a phd just for this game... :P

DT
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