What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Discussion related to the most well-known series by Kojima. News, debate and any related discussions are welcome. IMPORTANT Any topics related to MGS4 should temporarily go in the appropriate forum. Please keep spoilers out of signatures too.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

Ghost wrote:Many people don't seem to get that the whole "Foxdie competing with Foxdie" is a contrived game concept, giving Snake a cure and making him young again wouldn't even be more absurd than this.
Especially if people wanted more games with Solid Snake.

I shall be honest, Metal Gear Solid 4 feels like a load of fanwank, especially geared towards those who were all over the MGS series.
Don't me wrong, I liked the Solid series but that doesn't mean that I consider everything of it genius, let alone not open for improvement.

I don't get the whole "Big Boss" love and adoration, sure I liked playing the character but people seem to forget that this guy wanted to trap the world in perpetual warfare.
"No he didn't, he created Outer Heaven and later Zanzibar Land to oppose the <B><B>Patriots</B></B>." Some of you might say.
May I remind you that this plot twist was invented years after Hideo Kojima made Metal Gear 1 and 2?

In his original take Big Boss, Gray Fox and the others were simply soldiers who were addicted to war, they weren't out to fight some Illuminati like conspiracy group and create a nation free of them, they wanted a world in which they would always be important.

Having Big Boss back is definitely the fantasy of the people who played Metal Gear Solid 3 and Portable Ops but not the people who started from the beginning with the series.
I totally agree now. I don't know what got into me before, I somehow forgot my roots of MG and MG2 and was living in the world of MGS3. I'm back home now.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Nitroadict »

Spoiler:
I think MGS4 had legitimate, mechanical problems with regards to gameplay & story handling; specifically the Boss fights & their backstory. In previous MGS games, a flashback or monologue by the boss was enough to hint at a depth of character; in MGS4, for whatever reason, they abandon this approach, and make Drebin tell you a trite ghost story about each of them. Yes, you can reason that for some reason, each of the Beast's were too "traumatized" to make a monolouge, or whatever, so why not use the "press x for flashback" to show a series of scenes that show a child going through tough & screwed up times that also led to a scene of each of these Beast's putting on their suits ? I still think that would've been fa more efficient than hearing Drebin talk about them.

Drebin's importance is also erratic; it takes 5 mins for him to introduce himself as a gun launderer? From a directing point of view, this is a failure, because he does not become *that* important later on; yes, his role is obviously not what it seems from the second you see him, and they explain this in the ending (during the wedding, the scene with otacon), but still, it should've taken a minute to get that point across.

Otacon was also written sloppily, and similar to the almost "drama for the sake of it" step-mom admission in MGS2, Kojima for some reason decided to take a logical & funny sexual fling with Naomi (come on, amid all the story, it's obvious sex for pleasure wouldn't really factor in, especially with scientists), and make it into this bloated emotional affair. Yes Naomi has backstory from MGS1, but she & otacon never worked on the same team back then, nor since. Kojima also seems to get confused with whether Otacon & snake should feel betrayed by Naomi, although with Snake it's more obvious he's next to indifference (possibly because Naomi's backstory has little importance with him trying to kill Liquid Ocelot) as she explained herself to him in the previous MGS1, and Snake even understands her reasoning and more or less can't blame her (that's what I remember from MGS1, anyway).

Back to Big Boss however, yes it can be viewed as fanservice, and too sudden (even for Kojima) of a plot-twist that some will just go "No, thanks" and ignore it. However, you have to remember Kojima wrote himself into a hole with MGS2 (despite how great many may think it is), especially with the Liquid arm thing. Would you want MGS5 & MGS6 beating a dead horse by keeping Snake alive to explain everything that happened in the de-briefing of MGS4 over the next decade? Really? Because it seems as much as some will rant about MGS4 sucking, just as many will say "if snake is alive in MGS5, that's it, I'm not bothering anymore." Kojima's choices about MGS2's story obviously had an impact on the rest of the game's in the series, and he made a judgement call to explain / begin certain things (MGS3) & explain / end almost the entire thing (MGS4).

I may be one of the few that thinks this, but, I was relieved the de-briefing occurred & explained the rest; I was further relieved that BB finally did die, in a legit fashion due to FoxDie. I say legit since Kojima obviously felt Liquid being somehow alive despite dying from foxdie was ridiculous to do (thankfully this was explained as well, but further reinforced by the Database too), and it's logical to conclude if anyone else died from FoxDie, it's safe to say that they are dead period. I also thought that Ocelot carrying on the personality of Liquid fully reinforced some central concepts with memetics & the meme, and would've been a lot more appropriate than Ocelot having mystical powers, and yet, never used such abilities in previous outings in the MGS saga (despite his father being The Sorrow & supposedly having those abilities; I say supposedly because the backstory of MGS3 hasn't been entirely explored just yet.)

Regarding how snake getting a cure would've been less absurd than FoxDie competing with FoxDie, it depends on how you look at it: if there was a foxdie vaccination, why didn't Big Boss use it? Or anyone else for that matter? The FoxDie vs. FoxDie concept, while can viewed as an "easy" fix, does fit with MGS1's theme of gene's competing with one another to be expressed, as well as natural selection. It also reinforced Drebin's ulterior motives (and prevented a stupid scene of Drebin injecting Snake with whatever, who somehow let's him do this) for the <B>Patriots</B>.

This also reinforced the fact that despite being used in MGS1 (inital vector for FoxDie) and in MGS2 (Tanker incident blamed on him, Solidus taking his name for the Bigshell Hijack, Raiden using his name as a code-name), Snake is still a soldier who is still being used, and at the end does he finally escape all of it with the closing of the story, the end of the <B>Patriots</B>, and the inevitability that he will die, and that he should try & make the best of it since he no longer needs to fight & be a soldier anymore.

Solid Snake getting cured & being young again, hm... I'm sure if that happened, he would've totally retired, not return for future games, upon which, no one would ever complain that Kojima should've killed him off, or made him unable to return, because the games somehow suck. Kojima obviously felt the story of Snake went on long enough, whether or not he should've been killed is irrelevant since he's 'alive, but going to die" in the series, and it just gets to people that it's completely out of their hands because it didn't follow their idealistic expectations.

The idea that MGS3 was created as fanservice (which was hinted at with the idea of playing as Big Boss as unnecessary) seems a bit flimsy to me, as MGS3 focused on a more suitably simplified story since it was obviously made for the intention of showing how everything in the MGS storyline began. MGS3 was almost required in order to help make sense with some of MGS' backstory, which still had plenty of holes & questionable things to it, where some make it seem as if MGS4 is the only game that has this while they feign outrage & lolz.

At this point though, I still stand by that editing could've improved the story in MGS4. Hell, I was rather surprised they didn't take the route of releasing the game in 2 different parts, sort of like a double album, but that's assuming that an MGS4 substance won't come out and offer more gameplay and/or story. Until then though, there always a possibility for a fan-edit of MGS4's CG ;).

If Big Boss handn't showed up, confirming the questionable nature of his remains that shadowed MGS1 & MGS2, and also explains why his remains couldn't just be "handed over" (a fairly big annoyance with MGS1 to this day, for me), and then they used some other character, you would hear countless bitching about "What? Otacon/Drebin/Naomi's Video/Liquid/ explains everything? Whtf, this doesn't fit into my previous assumptions, this sucks!".

Taking the point of Big Boss showing up and countering what Naomi said was true, I disagree somewhat, as Naomi (as far as I can remember, I've skipped the cutscenes on the subsequent playthroughs of MGS4) did not explicitly say that FoxDie would counter FoxDie, and that Snake didn't need to kill himself, etc. She gave him a timeline of up until when shit would go down and Snake might become a weapon, but then again, it can be argued that the whole thing regarding FoxDie mutating like that can be absurd too. It can be further argued that Naomi largley did not need as many scenes as she did, too (the whole Naomi & Vamp thing, while Vamp being there at all and doing nothing more than henchman stuff, after developing him in MGS2, was silly).

If you're gonna call certain things MGS4 absurd, I see no reason why not to possibly consider anything else absurd too, like Sunny coming along & supposedly being important, yet, kind of like Naomi, her scenes ultimately felt underwhelming, and Sunny's "importance" wasn't as important as previously suspected (I know I wasn't the only one confused with the behind the scenes hinting that Sunny was very important to the story, yet when they compare that to MGS4's actual story, it isn't quite clear). Rosemary returning with her pointless codec convos about Psyche were also absurd, especially since Codec wasn't used nearly as much, and all the excess Otacon-guiding you had to hear when knowing full well where to go & what to do that wasn't in the codec (and therefore wasn't optional to skip listening to), was also absurd & stupid.

The arguments over where the MGS series should've done this or that are moot, imo, as none of us are in a position to go back and change things, nor retcon them, unless someone high up at Kojima Productions is happening to read of this (highly doubtful). That also being said, it would silly to use elitism to shut off other's ideas & opinions as somehow "wrong" to the series, when the best any fan of the series can do is analyze, argue, & gripe about what actually ended up being in the games.
P.S. That was a terribly dis-jointed post, I apologize if it made anyone's eyes bleed DX.
Last edited by Nitroadict on Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Nitroadict »

Commander_AK-47 wrote:
Ghost wrote:Many people don't seem to get that the whole "Foxdie competing with Foxdie" is a contrived game concept, giving Snake a cure and making him young again wouldn't even be more absurd than this.
Especially if people wanted more games with Solid Snake.

I shall be honest, Metal Gear Solid 4 feels like a load of fanwank, especially geared towards those who were all over the MGS series.
Don't me wrong, I liked the Solid series but that doesn't mean that I consider everything of it genius, let alone not open for improvement.

I don't get the whole "Big Boss" love and adoration, sure I liked playing the character but people seem to forget that this guy wanted to trap the world in perpetual warfare.
"No he didn't, he created Outer Heaven and later Zanzibar Land to oppose the <B><B><B>Patriots</B></B></B>." Some of you might say.
May I remind you that this plot twist was invented years after Hideo Kojima made Metal Gear 1 and 2?

In his original take Big Boss, Gray Fox and the others were simply soldiers who were addicted to war, they weren't out to fight some Illuminati like conspiracy group and create a nation free of them, they wanted a world in which they would always be important.

Having Big Boss back is definitely the fantasy of the people who played Metal Gear Solid 3 and Portable Ops but not the people who started from the beginning with the series.
I totally agree now. I don't know what got into me before, I somehow forgot my roots of MG and MG2 and was living in the world of MGS3. I'm back home now.

I find it silly to disregard the adoration for Big Boss based on the fact that the backstory behind Big Boss' motivations wasn't fully explained just yet. I remember MGS4's ending, it was said Big Boss & Zero both mis-interpreted The Boss' intentions & what she said, and that BB in the end of MGS4, right before dying , realized that they were both wrong.


Of course, any game, like MGS3, that touches MG's backstory, is a lie, and violates fandom authority. We can't have that happen now, can we ?
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

I completely agree with everything you said there (and it was a lot), in some ways Kojima had no choice but to choose the path he did in MGS4 and it DID save us a few games of meaningless game play just to point out the back story. However, if any of you remember this, MGS2 was supposed to be the end of the series. It was supposed to be the story of MGS4, more or less, and they were going to leave it at that. No Raiden, no Solidus and no Metal Gear Ray. Because of 9/11 however, Kojima had to change it. Now that is dramatically important. Because he changed it, he damned the story to an inevitable crash and burn. If he had gone as planned he would never have made a prequel, therefor never raising the problems of connecting MGS3 to MGS1 (Which the root of some of the MGS4 story problems is) and making the story fit. That is what caused the story issues in MGS4 and I believe that if he had just made MGS2 like he intended to the series would have turned out much better. He was forced into a corner and he knew that if he continued he would be crucified and he did anyway. He had no choice unless he went back and re-made MG, MG2 and MGS1, which is completely illogical, but an interesting possibility however.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Nitroadict »

Spoiler:
I see no immediate problem with connecting MGS3 to MGS1 at all, actually, since it already had one main connection: Ocelot. MGS3 also already influenced MGS1's story be default as Ocelot intentionally killed The DARPHA Chief (who was Sigint in MGS3), it already influenced MGS1 by providing the how & who that developed metal gear itself (Granin via Otacon's grandfather, since he was burned by Sokolov's Shagohod getting the attention it didn't really deserve), it provided the reason why Big Boss got his title, the catalyst for the legend itself (The Boss & events surrounding the Boss), it provided the foreshadowing of MGS1 with Ocelot handing over the Metal Gear blueprints as they "might come in handy one day".

Of course, story purists will balk at MGS3, and any other interquels & sequels between MGS3 and MgI & II & MGS1, but due to the outcome of MGS2 (I'm still curious as hell as to how it would've originally ended, I'm hoping the recently won on ebay Document of MGS2 provides at least a tidbit of insight), and the ending of the MGS series with MGS4, they will be necessary to elaborate the links between the games. I would much rather Kojima Productions focus on that, ( Snake got the sendoff he got in MGS4, however different many people wish it to be) rather than dragging out Solid Snake to the pasture for another decade or two and waiting to fire the gun, with games w/ storylines that defy even Kojima standards.
I would view it logical if they flesh out connections between the games (necessary, and they've already got a good start with the MGS4 Database), but a bit un-necessary to remake MGS1 (this is partially why I did not like Twin Snakes, other than the re-recorded dialouge, the gamecube controller for the game being worse than the inital xbox1 controllers, and the over-done cinematics). I think if they did do anything new to MGS1, the cheapest way (relatively speaking) to do it would be a graphical port of the PSone version to PS2, without changing anything else (even dialouge). A PS2 port for Twin Snakes might be even cheaper, but methinks Nintendo wouldn't appreciate that much as TS is probably contract bound to be a GameCube exclusive.

Remaking MG & MG II, however, seems logical, but I would like for them to provide the old versions along with the remade versions ala how they did with MGS3: Subsistence. Even if old school fans bitch about it, the remake would help drastically in the aid of retconning the games together, and it wouldn't magically make the old versions dissapear. I think the inclusion of the old versions of the game would be a nice nod to them, if not for the additional challenge of playing an MGS game without the bells & whistles of 3D graphics & physics.

Personally, I think remaking MG & MGII into something that resembles Ghost Babel would be choice, as it retains the old-school feel while being complex enough to be in the style of "2D gaming just before MGS1". GB, for a gameboy game, is incredible, and while they're at it, they should include Ghost Babel with any said modern remakes of MG1 & MG II that include, as mentioned above, the old versions as well.

An interesting thought just crept into my mind, though: what if they could go back and provide of at the very least, a non-playable version of MGS2's story as it was originally meant to be, where the series ends & wasn't changed due 9/11? I think if they even had footage of it, giving it to fans for a fan-edit of say "MGS2: The Original Cut (How The MGS Series Was Supposed To End)" would really be excellent. Does anyone know if they've decided to explore what could've been in alternative media / projects?
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Ghost »

Sorry double post
Last edited by Ghost on Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Ghost »

Commander_AK-47,

I am not accusing you of anything, you should not take it as a personal attack on your person.
This is simply me saying my own opinion of some of the fandom in general.
You accuse me of being a Naked Snake Lover!? Fuck that! I truly adore the Big Boss of the MG Series, the true bad guy of the good old days, even before the <B><B>Patriots</B></B>. I played from the very beginning dude I didn't start with MGS3 or Portable Ops, it was not my fantasy to see the 'Good Guy' Big Boss return, don't mistake me for one of those nubs.
Read closely what I just said ;)
I have nothing against you, and I have nothing against your opinion.
I totally agree now. I don't know what got into me before, I somehow forgot my roots of MG and MG2 and was living in the world of MGS3. I'm back home now.
I don't know if you are sarcastic now, for now I take it you are not, but everyone has the right to change his or her opinion during the years.
For the same sake the newly made Prequels would really have taken well with the fans, they would have been over it and see it as a sort of new start to the saga.
Of course, any game, like MGS3, that touches MG's backstory, is a lie, and violates fandom authority. We can't have that happen now, can we ?
Tell me, are you being a prick on purpose?
Yes, Kojima does have the highest authority when it comes to adding or modifying his games as he sees fit, I won't deny that.
Does that mean we all have to go with it whenever an alteration is made that pretty much contradicts what has been established before, simply making it something like "I actually just lied, this is the real truth".

I see this happen a lot in various media not just Metal Gear, writers who suddenly write elements that contradict earlier events or plot developments just so that they can add something they feel makes it better or makes room for even more material they can come up with because it really hit a note with the fans (think Final Fantasy 7 in which we got needless prequels and sequels because the fans were gaga about it).

It would be interesting to know how the plot of Metal Gear Solid 2 would have been without all the pressure from fans and higher ups.

Going to take a brake to think about how to comment on the rest otherwise it would end up in an insult fest.

Edit: more
I say legit since Kojima obviously felt Liquid being somehow alive despite dying from foxdie was ridiculous to do (thankfully this was explained as well, but further reinforced by the Database too), and it's logical to conclude if anyone else died from FoxDie, it's safe to say that they are dead period. I also thought that Ocelot carrying on the personality of Liquid fully reinforced some central concepts with memetics & the meme, and would've been a lot more appropriate than Ocelot having mystical powers, and yet, never used such abilities in previous outings in the MGS saga (despite his father being The Sorrow & supposedly having those abilities
Liquid was most likely brought back for the same reason why we still see Sephiroth and Albert Wesker return time after time after time even, some of the fans love these characters so much that they expected writers and producers to jump through hoops to find ways to bring them back or explain how they keep surviving a possible demise.

In effect they become more like a comic book villain, once their current scheme has been stopped by the hero they retreat to their doom fortress and coming up with a new plan.
(yes I know Sephiroth died at the end of FF7 but they brought him back in that movie)

Regarding how snake getting a cure would've been less absurd than FoxDie competing with FoxDie, it depends on how you look at it: if there was a foxdie vaccination, why didn't Big Boss use it? Or anyone else for that matter? The FoxDie vs. FoxDie concept, while can viewed as an "easy" fix, does fit with MGS1's theme of gene's competing with one another to be expressed, as well as natural selection.
It still serves as a plot device of why Snake shouldn’t commit suicide in the end, thus cheapening the sacrifice if he would have done it.
Again, why should a cure be even more contrived.

MGS3 was almost required in order to help make sense with some of MGS' backstory, which still had plenty of holes & questionable things to it, where some make it seem as if MGS4 is the only game that has this while they feign outrage & lolz.
In a way you just said it yourself, MGS3 was made in order to explain plotholes in the earlier games that at the time now solution had been invented for yet.
So in order to fill the holes a lot of new characters needed to be created.
That diminishes MGS3 role in the Metal Gear series.

If Big Boss handn't showed up, confirming the questionable nature of his remains that shadowed MGS1 & MGS2, and also explains why his remains couldn't just be "handed over" (a fairly big annoyance with MGS1 to this day, for me), and then they used some other character, you would hear countless bitching about "What? Otacon/Drebin/Naomi's Video/Liquid/ explains everything? Whtf, this doesn't fit into my previous assumptions, this sucks!".
This was a question for you that needed to be answered?
I think it was pretty well explained in MGS1 that Big Boss’ remains served as the prototype for the soldier gene experiments, the US government wasn’t just going to hand that over to a bunch of former Special Forces turned traitors and terrorists.
Plus the US has a policy of not giving in to terrorist demands.

Heck they send in Snake because they wanted to recover Metal Gear REX and the launch data, they didn’t care much for the rest; soldiers, DARPA chief, Armstech president.
Had that not been on their agenda they would already have send in B2’s with Bunker Busters and simply started over again.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Nitroadict »

For what' worth, I wasn't intentionally trying to be a prick, I just felt like my opinions / comments probably wouldn't fare well, so I figured I'd go ahead and break the ice anyway, although I might've overdone it a bit, lol.

I apologize if I made anyone (mainly the mods) nervous :O.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Ghost »

Ach never mind, sorry I overreacted.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

Here is my official opinion. I think that making the prequel (MGS3) Raised a lot of problems. For instance, CQC was in MGS3 and not in the previous games, so they had to make an excuse for that. They said that Solid Snake disliked it and purposely banned it from his own use. However they wanted him to use it in MGS4, so the official story is (according to the MGS4 Database) that in 2011 the US government released the techniques to the public and at that time Solid Snake lifted his ban on it. This works as explaining why he suddenly started to use it in MGS4 and not in MGS and MGS2. We, the fans, can clearly see that it was a disparate move to fill in a gap that can otherwise be explained by "We hadn't invented CQC until MGS3 and we didn't know to put it in MGS and MGS2". That is one example and in my opinion I think it would have came out a hell of a lot better if they made MGS2 the final game in the series like they had planned. None of the problems we see today would be in existence. However, all of that aside I do think MGS4 was an awesome game and had a beautiful story non the less, even though Kojima took a few wrong turns i believe it came out well and I loved it.


As for what you guys said.
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Ghost wrote:Commander_AK-47,

I am not accusing you of anything, you should not take it as a personal attack on your person.
This is simply me saying my own opinion of some of the fandom in general.
You accuse me of being a Naked Snake Lover!? Fuck that! I truly adore the Big Boss of the MG Series, the true bad guy of the good old days, even before the <B><B><B>Patriots</B></B></B>. I played from the very beginning dude I didn't start with MGS3 or Portable Ops, it was not my fantasy to see the 'Good Guy' Big Boss return, don't mistake me for one of those nubs.
Read closely what I just said ;)
I have nothing against you, and I have nothing against your opinion.
I totally agree now. I don't know what got into me before, I somehow forgot my roots of MG and MG2 and was living in the world of MGS3. I'm back home now.
I don't know if you are sarcastic now, for now I take it you are not, but everyone has the right to change his or her opinion during the years.
For the same sake the newly made Prequels would really have taken well with the fans, they would have been over it and see it as a sort of new start to the saga.

I was referring to Dick Motorman. Also, I was not being sarcastic somehow I said the opposite of what I believe. I really did like how the story turned out like I said but I shouldn't have disagreed with you guys because my feelings about the story are the same.

Ghost wrote:
I say legit since Kojima obviously felt Liquid being somehow alive despite dying from foxdie was ridiculous to do (thankfully this was explained as well, but further reinforced by the Database too), and it's logical to conclude if anyone else died from FoxDie, it's safe to say that they are dead period. I also thought that Ocelot carrying on the personality of Liquid fully reinforced some central concepts with memetics & the meme, and would've been a lot more appropriate than Ocelot having mystical powers, and yet, never used such abilities in previous outings in the MGS saga (despite his father being The Sorrow & supposedly having those abilities
Liquid was most likely brought back for the same reason why we still see Sephiroth and Albert Wesker return time after time after time even, some of the fans love these characters so much that they expected writers and producers to jump through hoops to find ways to bring them back or explain how they keep surviving a possible demise.

In effect they become more like a comic book villain, once their current scheme has been stopped by the hero they retreat to their doom fortress and coming up with a new plan.
(yes I know Sephiroth died at the end of FF7 but they brought him back in that movie)

I think bringing Liquid back as Liquid Ocelot was a valuable plot device because in MGS3 ocelot was a good guy and in MGS4 he is a bad guy? doesn't mix, they had to come up with a way to make him a believable bad guy.


Nitroadict wrote: I would view it logical if they flesh out connections between the games (necessary, and they've already got a good start with the MGS4 Database), but a bit un-necessary to remake MGS1 (this is partially why I did not like Twin Snakes, other than the re-recorded dialouge, the gamecube controller for the game being worse than the inital xbox1 controllers, and the over-done cinematics). I think if they did do anything new to MGS1, the cheapest way (relatively speaking) to do it would be a graphical port of the PSone version to PS2, without changing anything else (even dialouge). A PS2 port for Twin Snakes might be even cheaper, but methinks Nintendo wouldn't appreciate that much as TS is probably contract bound to be a GameCube exclusive.

Remaking MG & MG II, however, seems logical, but I would like for them to provide the old versions along with the remade versions ala how they did with MGS3: Subsistence. Even if old school fans bitch about it, the remake would help drastically in the aid of retconning the games together, and it wouldn't magically make the old versions dissapear. I think the inclusion of the old versions of the game would be a nice nod to them, if not for the additional challenge of playing an MGS game without the bells & whistles of 3D graphics & physics.

Personally, I think remaking MG & MGII into something that resembles Ghost Babel would be choice, as it retains the old-school feel while being complex enough to be in the style of "2D gaming just before MGS1". GB, for a gameboy game, is incredible, and while they're at it, they should include Ghost Babel with any said modern remakes of MG1 & MG II that include, as mentioned above, the old versions as well.

An interesting thought just crept into my mind, though: what if they could go back and provide of at the very least, a non-playable version of MGS2's story as it was originally meant to be, where the series ends & wasn't changed due 9/11? I think if they even had footage of it, giving it to fans for a fan-edit of say "MGS2: The Original Cut (How The MGS Series Was Supposed To End)" would really be excellent. Does anyone know if they've decided to explore what could've been in alternative media / projects?

I agree, Twin Snakes was a bit over the top. That is why I favor the original MGS1 for PS1. When I said 'Re-Make' them I meant Konami re-makes them exactly the same way but with better graphics and for the PS3. MG and MG2 remakes would be truly awesome, i really hope they decide to do that. About the your final paragraph. Rumor has it that a full playable demo version of the original MGS2 is floating around the internet. If you could find it there you go. I doubt that it is easy to find though. Its almost exactly like MGS4, Liquid Ocelot, The Haven (Its actually a massive aircraft in the original MGS2, not a submarine/ship) and in the end after snake is finished he makes a daring jump off of the Haven and I guess parachutes down to earth. Anyway if you do manage to find the demo version let me know, I would like to play it as well.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Skycladiana »

What do I want to see in a new Metal Gear title?

Hideo Kojima. Period.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

lol true. anything he touches turns to masterpiece.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Dick Motorman »

there's so much I want to say but it'd just be pointless.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Skycladiana »

Hm. Isn't it funny how the MGS fans who think MGS4 was too much of a fan-fic game are the fans who think MGS4 wasn't enough like what they wanted?
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

Well the fan-fic theory is not my opinion. I believe, like I said above, that MGS3 made a LOT of complications and messed up the story possibilities a little. The fan-fic theory is true though.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Dick Motorman »

Skycladiana wrote:Hm. Isn't it funny how the MGS fans who think MGS4 was too much of a fan-fic game are the fans who think MGS4 wasn't enough like what they wanted?
what I wanted was for Kojima to shut his ears and make a game without listening to what everyone else wanted, and or no game at all, that's the beauty of mgs2's ending is that it's a perfect fit for making a sequel but it's also perfect as a true ending. Also, I'm an MG fan, not a MGS fan.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Nitroadict »

That's actually why I like MGS3 & played it more often than MGS2; MGS2 can function as an ending easily, as whatever loose ends there is have implied closure in the ending, but could be easily fleshed out anyway.

MGS3 then comes in with something almost completely new, and took the stealth gameplay to a significantly higher level, and the story is much different than MGS2, which felt more or less finished. Some may view it (MGS3) as introducing messy complications or whatever, but you always risk this whenever fleshing out backstory; this is especially true when considering MGs2 as a (good ) possible ending to MGS1. In this light, MGS3 can be view as a "stand alone legend" or what-if telling of what could've occurred.

However, w/ MGS4 considered, MGS3 becomes canon; without MPO & MGS4 it doesn't really. This is why I view MGS4 as more of a coda to the series, rather than another entry. MGS2 could been seen as the ending of MGS1 (they are the two games in the series that have the most blunt inter-connections, more so than MGII and MGs1 I would think), MGS3 could be seen as a Prolouge, and MGS4 as an Epilouge; in both cases, the games can be said to have many tangential connections to the two main games that definitely connected to one another.

Referring back to the use of music terminology (coda), I also tend to view each MGS game as sort of a transposition of the earlier MG games, as each MGS games have many similar events (history repeating itself) that tend to influence the next transposition or next game. In ways we are always in the same song with each game, just in different keys.

Hmm, in hindsight, I'm not sure if the above would make sense to anyone else lols.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Ghost »

Dick Motorman wrote:what I wanted was for Kojima to shut his ears and make a game without listening to what everyone else wanted, and or no game at all, that's the beauty of mgs2's ending is that it's a perfect fit for making a sequel but it's also perfect as a true ending. Also, I'm an MG fan, not a MGS fan.
Well I might have been curious about Ocelot and the <B>Patriots</B> but yeah.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

Dick Motorman wrote:what I wanted was for Kojima to shut his ears and make a game without listening to what everyone else wanted, and or no game at all, that's the beauty of mgs2's ending is that it's a perfect fit for making a sequel but it's also perfect as a true ending. Also, I'm an MG fan, not a MGS fan.
I understand. That is exactly what he needed to do. I am one of those who got what we wanted in MGS4 and I still would have preferred it to be an object of his creation and not of what the fans wanted. MG and MG2, That was where the real story was at. If they do anything I want them to remake MG and MG2 with modern technology. Also, I think they should make a PS3 version of Portable Ops but they're probably not going to do that.
Nitroadict wrote: Some may view it (MGS3) as introducing messy complications or whatever, but you always risk this whenever fleshing out backstory; this is especially true when considering MGs2 as a (good ) possible ending to MGS1. In this light, MGS3 can be view as a "stand alone legend" or what-if telling of what could've occurred.

I never thought of it that way, it actually makes a lot of sense.



Konami didn't start kissing the fans asses until MGS4. That was the only one that I felt was a fan creation. The others were totally fine. I still stand by what I said, it would have been a LOT better if they made MGS2 like Kojima intended and ended it there. Ah well, its done and there is nothing we can do about it so I don't even know why we are carrying on this thread.



I would like to see a Metal Gear Solid: The Frank Jaeger Chronicles.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Dick Motorman »

Nitroadict wrote:That's actually why I like MGS3 & played it more often than MGS2; MGS2 can function as an ending easily, as whatever loose ends there is have implied closure in the ending, but could be easily fleshed out anyway.

MGS3 then comes in with something almost completely new, and took the stealth gameplay to a significantly higher level, and the story is much different than MGS2, which felt more or less finished. Some may view it (MGS3) as introducing messy complications or whatever, but you always risk this whenever fleshing out backstory; this is especially true when considering MGs2 as a (good ) possible ending to MGS1. In this light, MGS3 can be view as a "stand alone legend" or what-if telling of what could've occurred.

However, w/ MGS4 considered, MGS3 becomes canon; without MPO & MGS4 it doesn't really. This is why I view MGS4 as more of a coda to the series, rather than another entry. MGS2 could been seen as the ending of MGS1 (they are the two games in the series that have the most blunt inter-connections, more so than MGII and MGs1 I would think), MGS3 could be seen as a Prolouge, and MGS4 as an Epilouge; in both cases, the games can be said to have many tangential connections to the two main games that definitely connected to one another.

Referring back to the use of music terminology (coda), I also tend to view each MGS game as sort of a transposition of the earlier MG games, as each MGS games have many similar events (history repeating itself) that tend to influence the next transposition or next game. In ways we are always in the same song with each game, just in different keys.

Hmm, in hindsight, I'm not sure if the above would make sense to anyone else lols.
I get what your saying, that's definetly an interesting way of viewing it. That's actually kind of the way I look at MGS3 and 4, I see them as almost "what-if" kind of story's like the marvel what if comics, it's just to bad they do have to be canon.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Ghost »

At one point I would like to see a Metal Gear 2 Solid Snake remake in 3D but at the other hand I am really worried what they would do if they would make one.
I honestly don't want any ret cons in favor of the MGS series.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Dick Motorman »

Ghost wrote:At one point I would like to see a Metal Gear 2 Solid Snake remake in 3D but at the other hand I am really worried what they would do if they would make one.
I honestly don't want any ret cons in favor of the MGS series.
I actually would like to go to school for video game design, I'm looking at two colleges right now, and one of my dreams was to remake it, but with zero retcons, the same game but updated... that being said, it doesn't really need it, it's a great game, and thats it, great games don't need to be reinvented... that being said (again) it would be a cool project.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Ghost »

Dick Motorman wrote:I actually would like to go to school for video game design, I'm looking at two colleges right now, and one of my dreams was to remake it, but with zero retcons, the same game but updated... that being said, it doesn't really need it, it's a great game, and thats it, great games don't need to be reinvented... that being said (again) it would be a cool project.
I honest to God would like to join you on such a course and such a project.
There are but two things I would like to add; Metal Gear G (Gustav) and a tank fight with one of the tanks.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Dick Motorman »

haha maybe someday... I still gotta figure out what college to go too. :mrgreen:
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

Dick Motorman wrote: I actually would like to go to school for video game design, I'm looking at two colleges right now, and one of my dreams was to remake it, but with zero retcons, the same game but updated... that being said, it doesn't really need it, it's a great game, and thats it, great games don't need to be reinvented... that being said (again) it would be a cool project.

What I meant when I said remake MG and MG2 was that they don't touch the story, just make a 3D version of the game. Also where are you located? I can suggest a good college.
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