What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Discussion related to the most well-known series by Kojima. News, debate and any related discussions are welcome. IMPORTANT Any topics related to MGS4 should temporarily go in the appropriate forum. Please keep spoilers out of signatures too.
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Nitroadict
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Nitroadict »

I've actually recently got into trying my hand at learning programming with the aim of eventually being able to makes games as well. Although, I never took the obligatory programming class in high school, so being self-taught despite not knowing something as simple as Visual Basic does have it's hurdles (I come from a purley HTML/CSS/mild PHP & Javascript use background).

Anyone interested though, I've been having a lot of slow but steady progress in learning such via Python; the first link below also gives one a lot of motivation for being able to get something done, though.


How To Build A Game From Scratch In A Week (via Python as a language, very cool project): http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articl ... le2259.asp

Python As A First Language: http://mcsp.wartburg.edu/zelle/python/python-first.html

PyGame: http://www.pygame.org/download.shtml
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Dick Motorman »

Commander_AK-47 wrote:
Dick Motorman wrote: I actually would like to go to school for video game design, I'm looking at two colleges right now, and one of my dreams was to remake it, but with zero retcons, the same game but updated... that being said, it doesn't really need it, it's a great game, and thats it, great games don't need to be reinvented... that being said (again) it would be a cool project.

What I meant when I said remake MG and MG2 was that they don't touch the story, just make a 3D version of the game. Also where are you located? I can suggest a good college.
well I've already pretty much narrowed it down to two colleges but thanks.
Nitroadict wrote:I've actually recently got into trying my hand at learning programming with the aim of eventually being able to makes games as well. Although, I never took the obligatory programming class in high school, so being self-taught despite not knowing something as simple as Visual Basic does have it's hurdles (I come from a purley HTML/CSS/mild PHP & Javascript use background).

Anyone interested though, I've been having a lot of slow but steady progress in learning such via Python; the first link below also gives one a lot of motivation for being able to get something done, though.


How To Build A Game From Scratch In A Week (via Python as a language, very cool project): http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articl ... le2259.asp

Python As A First Language: http://mcsp.wartburg.edu/zelle/python/python-first.html

PyGame: http://www.pygame.org/download.shtml
I took a programming class in high school and barely got anything out of it aside from some basic flash stuff (mostly animation, but I did some actual game stuff, I had a ship flying around and shooting, and megaman running for example) But that build a game in a week thing looks neat so I might give that a try.
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Nitroadict
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Nitroadict »

If you already know the basics of programming (variables, classes, etc.) I envy you greatly: that is all I've been working on and off on the past few months, and I'm still grasping at how to do comparatively simple things in Python & Ruby, which are considered very friendly programming languages to start out with.

Apparently, you either immediatly get it or struggle with it, but the first language(s) you mess around with can add more hurdles than needed sometimes (I learned this the hard way trying to learn PHP or C the first month I tried starting; I still don't entirely remember that week lol).
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Artemio »

C and C++ would be the de facto tools for game development. Of course the target platform would define how deep you go, or if you use an engine or SDK that abstracts stuff. Anyway, my recommendation as a current software developer (not Games, though I have played with console hardware from time to time) is to learn C in order to be able to tackle any language. It is not that it is harder, it simply has less tools available from scratch, and you can learn how stuff works by building your own set of tools. It will also give you a very close idea if what the Hardware is doing.
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Nitroadict
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Nitroadict »

I intend on learning C once I actually know what the basics of programming for that reason alone; at this point, I wouldn't for the life of me know what the hell to do with any of it, as most guides on how to learn a programming language are mostly written from the point of view of someone who actually knows how to program, rather than someone who knows absolutely nothing about the basics.

If I don't make anymore progress on my own, I might just have to suck it up and take in class format, although it would suck if I ended up learning programming via Java (I have not heard good things about it, lol.).
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Artemio »

Just buy a good book, the Deitel is a Beginners book, the one I used almost 20 years ago for C myself. Then use gccon any operating system and you are done, you have the rest of the tools for free.

I used an earlier copy than this one:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Program-2nd-H ... 870&sr=8-5

This is the actual one (the cover sucks!)

http://www.amazon.com/C-How-Program-5th ... 870&sr=8-1
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by seraphssavior »

I'm pretty opposed to remaking the original Metal Gear games. It would be incredibly weird to play some of the parts,
Spoiler:
Running Man would be weird, the hang-glider, Flamethrower-ing Big Boss, hell even the Fist Fight with Grey Fox would be weird. And that's only in MG2. The desert and swimming sections in 1 would also be weird in 3d, and most of the boss fights would either be incredibly easy or incredibly hard.
Controls would be awkward in those situations, as well as in others, so I'd say keep them the way they are.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

seraphssavior wrote:I'm pretty opposed to remaking the original Metal Gear games. It would be incredibly weird to play some of the parts, Running Man would be weird, the hang-glider, Flamethrower-ing Big Boss, hell even the Fist Fight with Grey Fox would be weird. And that's only in MG2. The desert and swimming sections in 1 would also be weird in 3d, and most of the boss fights would either be incredibly easy or incredibly hard.Controls would be awkward in those situations, as well as in others, so I'd say keep them the way they are.

Yea that's one theory. On the other hand they a ARE Konami so I'm sure, if they do decide to remake them, they will fix those problems and maybe modernize the controls too. Its just a thought anyway, not like I called them up and asked them to do it.

Dick Motorman wrote: I took a programming class in high school and barely got anything out of it aside from some basic flash stuff (mostly animation, but I did some actual game stuff, I had a ship flying around and shooting, and megaman running for example) But that build a game in a week thing looks neat so I might give that a try.

I am took Graphic Design in High School and its very general. It includes what you normally think of Graphic Design (Billboards, Logos, Movie Posters, T-Shirts, ect.) but it also includes Video Game Design and Movie editing and Architecture. That is why I like it. If I change my mind about what I want to do I can just alter the field a little bit and voila!
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Skycladiana »

seraphssavior wrote:I'm pretty opposed to remaking the original Metal Gear games. It would be incredibly weird to play some of the parts. Running Man would be weird, the hang-glider, Flamethrower-ing Big Boss, hell even the Fist Fight with Grey Fox would be weird. And that's only in MG2. The desert and swimming sections in 1 would also be weird in 3d, and most of the boss fights would either be incredibly easy or incredibly hard. Controls would be awkward in those situations, as well as in others, so I'd say keep them the way they are.
If MG and MG2 were remade, they would likely be totally redesigned from the ground up. Big things like the flamethrower-ing, Gray Fox's minefield duel and the like would remain, but I imagine you'd pretty much be getting totally new games from that point out. Which is totally fine with me.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

Like I said they don't HAVE to touch the story they can leave it the same and still make them in 3D. That is what I would prefer but if they have to change the story even a little I'd rather they not do it.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Dick Motorman »

You said you wanted to see a Metal Gear from the perspective of Jaeger, I was wondering how did you see that working? What part of his life, what story would you want told?
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

Well not just Metal Gear. I wanted his whole life from Portable Ops (when he was Null) to MGS1 when he died. Joining Naked Snake, Fighting Solid Snake and finally fighting the REX. That would be awesome.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Ghost »

Remaking Metal Gear 1 would be difficult, Metal Gear 2 might be possible but perhaps seraphssavior is right and we should leave these games alone.

New universe would be probably best.
Last edited by Ghost on Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

Eh, arguably yes.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Dick Motorman »

Commander_AK-47 wrote:Well not just Metal Gear. I wanted his whole life from Portable Ops (when he was Null) to MGS1 when he died. Joining Naked Snake, Fighting Solid Snake and finally fighting the REX. That would be awesome.
:???:
Ghost wrote:Remaking Metal Gear 1 would be difficult, Metal Gear 2 might be possible but perhaps seraphssavior is right and we should leave these games alone.

New universe would be probably best.
They should be left alone, but if they really wanted to remake them they should put someone at the head of the team that'll do justice to the games, like me. Because I'm awesome. :mrgreen:
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

If they completely make a new Metal Gear series with new characters and a new story and new name, I'd buy it.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Ghost »

I think we all feel that we could make an excellent Metal Gear remake or new Metal Gear game if we were on the team but I doubt that it would be like that in reality.
Still we can dream :)

Well if I was allowed to make the Metal Gear 1 remake I would do the following;

- Make Outer Heaven more realistic looking; quarters, armouries, toilets, dining rooms, work out rooms. A more logical layout divided in motor pools, computer rooms etc.
- Perhaps add a jungle section, not from the start but later in the game.
- Give the mercenary bosses more personality and better names.
- Do more with Grey Fox, Schneider, Diane etc.
- Camouflage system including dressing up as enemy units.
- Faces on the radio menu.

I think I would also add a twist in the ending when you confront Metal Gear, when you are about to destroy it, it is revealed to be fully functional and you have to have a boss battle against it.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

Well those things you mentioned weren't there just because it was made all that time ago. If it was made not all those things probably would happen.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by akizzle »

I love the MG games - but let's be honest, they offer little in the way of story or of Big Boss' TRUE intentions. I hardly consider the actions or mind set of Big Boss in those games as gospel.

Everyone has their opinions and I could care less - and I wouldn't flip flop like commander ak 47 (reading your earlier posts are hilarious... What do you really think?)

I respect those who don't think MGS4 wraps up the story to their tastes - but know that there are others who think MGS4 was everything is should and could of been.

I have followed this series from the beginning, but wasn't hooked until MGS1. I was more of a snatcher fan back then. I have played through the series in just about every possible order you could come up with and I must say MGS4 is an epic and a throughly thought out finale.

People can nit-pick all they want, but MGS4 will always stand as one of Hideo's greatest achievements. A near perfect conclusion.



I find it funny, everyone seems to have better ideas for the ending of MGS4 for the conclusion of this series, yet I will listen those interjections when those stating them create a universe and/or game universe as captivating, engrossing, and complete as metal gear solid.



We are waiting.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Dick Motorman »

I'm curious to know why you hold 4 in such high esteem, why do you think it was a fitting conclusion?
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

Yea dude, seriously? so cocky.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by akizzle »

First off let me set some ground work so we are all on the same page.

My opinions are not based on Graphical achievement, because basically every metal gear game gets unarguably better in this department.

What is not so obvious is since this is a Snatcher themed board and website I would assume I am in the minority in my high praise of MGS4. Boards of these kind tend to inhabited by nostalgic seeking video game players who are of the mindset of, "Nothing is as good as the first". This obviously doesn't describe all of you, but in general it is an actuate statement. May be a better description of my audiences mindset is as follows: by separating myself from "jumping on the bandwagon" of the newest iteration of a game, I distance myself from the new groups of fans that form with every subsequent release of a series. I feel, while some of you truly believe MGS4 isn't your favorite, others... ehem, just jump into a majority mindset of the playing field (e.g. This Forum and Commander AK 47's "revelation" or "awakening" of what he "truly" thinks)


Now on to MGS4.


It is expected that some people are disappointed with MGS4 and it's conclusion - I mean you can't satisfy everyone right? That said here is why I loved it.

I will respond to some of the remarks and dislike of the title that I hear around the net.




"The Bosses are not fleshed out therefore they suck. pwnage newbs l33t."

I agree that the Bosses (i.e. the BB Corps) were not fleshed out compared to other Units in the MGS series, but I wouldn't want it any other way. That fact that the game focuses on the pursuit of Liquid Ocelot is perfect, I don't need it cluttered with back stories of characters unrelated to my goal. If I want fleshed out Bosses I will play MGS1 or MGS2. The enemies or adversaries in MGS4 are fleshed of plenty, partly because they are returning characters, and partly because the cutscenes are directed superbly.

What does MGS4 gain by introducing completely fleshed out (i.e. back stories and all) Bosses? Nothing, MGS4 is a conclusion for a reason, a finale. To do that you have to work with the characters you have.




"Well then I WANT new bosses that are interesting, I want to change controller ports, etc."

Sorry dude, but there are only so many gimmicks a controller can endure. MGS4 controls more like a shooter, the controls are streamlined, therefore Bosses are fast and nimble which require fast thinking and fast aim. This is a first for the series. Preference will determine what you like here though.




"Old Snake should have killed himself - it would of been better/had more impact"

I was glad he didn't. Why would I want Snake dead? I don't want another game with him in it, but I don't want him dead. And it makes sense, throughout this series "living" is a huge theme. At the end of MGS1 Naomi tells Snake "to live", at the end of MGS2 Snake tells Raiden to live and form his own identity. At the end of MGS3 Eva tells Big Boss to live.

Unfortunately, Big Boss becomes villain, and doesn't live. He corners himself in an unending war against the <B>Patriots</B> and the world. Creating complete anarchy to oppose the la-li-lu-le-lo's control, even at the expense of innocent lives.

Solid Snake fights as well but, on the other side of the coin, for the <B>Patriots</B>. He doesn't scoff at innocent lives the same way, even if he is only fighting for himself.

At the conclusion of MGS4 Solid Snake has the chance to live, something Big Boss and the other clones were not blessed with. Solid Snake, as the last beast, owes it to himself and those before him to see off this age of war, to live and be at peace. If Snake killed himself, no doubt it would have been sad, but it wouldn't be justice. He deserves his short but sweet freedom from the system and Zero/Big Boss's Cold War.




"Bringing Big Boss back was not necessary"

Are you kidding? Big Boss, the original legendary soldier HAD to come back. Who else should have killed off Zero? Big Boss, a near vegetable, transcends what any normal man could possibly accomplish by practically "coming back to life" to end the evil he had help start. The two opposing interpretations of The Boss gone wrong, meet again at the conclusion and end it. Big Boss kills Zero and Zero's FOXDIE kills Big Boss. Perfect. And Snake, the closest to Big Boss' potential and ability surpasses him by surviving and seeing off the age of war. In a way Big Boss is set free vicariously through Snake as Snake sees off the age of war. I am don't see it getting better than this.

Some argue that Big Boss was a bad guy, and I agree. He wanted to be free from Zero's control and that is all. He didn't want to save the world. How does his presence at the end of MGS4 negate that? Big Boss reveals nothing at the end of MGS4 that would suggest he is much different from his mindset in MG and MG2.




There are countless praises and scoldings of the MGS series and I believe all are warranted, they are opinions after all. Just know that there are people who like what this series has become. There are minor plot holes i.e. Big Boss' age change, but for the most part, a series that covers 50 years isn't and easy feat to make enjoyable and intriguing.

There really isn't other story as comprehensive as MGS in this form of media.






MGS: A Classic PSOne game. Great Story, revolutionary gameplay.

MGS2: Tightly packed story. New exciting gameplay.

MGS3: Great introduction for Big Boss, well balanced story and pacing. CQC was a blast.

MGS4: Refined every aspect of the Series to near perfection, Wraps up series that will be remembered as one of the greatest single story arch's ever told.
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Dick Motorman »

Where's Prince when we need him?
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by akizzle »

You act like you needed the second coming of Christ for the MGS series to satisfy you - if you want more innovation try portal or soon LevelHead.

And you provide little in the way of actual ways that the story could of been better. Besides stating superficial reasons that it sucked like "big boss was retconned = gay, Series had to follow a story = gay", there really isn't any bite in your arguments... If you can call them that. Although, being a critic is important to the development of the gaming industry as a whole, people who bitch do little in the way of progression in this industry.

The MGS series choose to follow a story through the input of fans, Hideo, and the industry. Get over it.

On the Gameplay side critics and constructive input helped MGS4 become accessible to more people and make it one of the most exciting action/stealth games to date.

Not everyone will enjoy the game's storyline - it is impossible. A story is much more subjective then anything else in gaming. Just know that few care. The gameplay is what pushes the industry and the series has always been on the forefront in that department.


I have a good game for you. RPG Maker for the PSOne. You can write whatever story you want.
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Commander_AK-47
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Re: What I'd like in a new Metal Gear title.

Post by Commander_AK-47 »

I agree with you, but if you read back in topic he has give a LOT of suggestion to a better MGS4 story.
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