MGS2 Cutscene analysis

Discussion related to the most well-known series by Kojima. News, debate and any related discussions are welcome. IMPORTANT Any topics related to MGS4 should temporarily go in the appropriate forum. Please keep spoilers out of signatures too.
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Post by Marc »

Heh, GameFaqs... You know what I'm thinking.
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Post by Kami »

Johnny Undaunted wrote:I heard rumors that the cut-scene of Arsenal Gear crashing into Manhattan was put in the Japanese version of Substance as a hidden feature for completing all five Snake Tales. Anyone cares to verify this?
Maybe it is a fake rumor, on every cheat/code/faq site I know there's nothing refering to that :?
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Post by GcDiaz »

Ok, Document came in. Very interesting stuff, I only wish I could speak/read JP. Hmmn...now that the MGS bug is firmly reimplanted, I think I'm gonna go and buy MGS1 for cheap. It's too bad Kojima made TTS a GCN exclusive. As much as I'd like to play it, I'm not buying a whole system for it. Why didn't he make the game for the audience that would genuinely appreciate it?

PS: Ever since coming here, my psyche has been inundated by the amount of info regarding MGS2...I beat this game years ago, and all of this stuff is literally news to me.
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Post by Johnny Undaunted »

GcDiaz wrote: Why didn't he make the game for the audience that would genuinely appreciate it?
If by "audience that would genuinely appreciate it", you meant "PS2", then allow me to activate the fanboy alarm. :P
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Post by Artemio »

I do find it difficult to believe that such a "trick", code or hidden feature exists.... Since it would totally go against preserving the game as it was and the formula sounds like the typical "do everethying you can in the game and it will come out". I'll try running a text dump and compare it with the other versions, to find out if theer is any difference at that level.... (this weekend my machine is up and running)
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Post by GcDiaz »

I'm referring to the original MGS players who would like nothing better than to see such a great game get the royal treatment. Isn't it a safe bet that most PS1 owners moved right up to the PS2, instead of the GCN? At the very least, he could've released it across multiple platforms, or even just PS2 and XBox, since those are the systems that had seen MGS games previously. I just don't see the rationale behind making such a game exclusive to that particular console.
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Post by Warrior Bob »

As I understand it, Kojima has stated in interviews that he is generally against doing remakes of games for different consoles, since it changes the original artists vision and the final product, and generally dilutes a property to have different versions floating around. Thing is, Shigeru Miyamoto personally asked him to do a remake for the Gamecube, and Kojima agreed out of his immense respect for Miyamoto. Besides, Kojima didn't really have much of a hand in it, it was more like programmers coming to him every day with their ideas, and Kojima giving the yay or nay to anything they wanted to add, and occasionally throwing in some of his own ideas.

I think Miyamoto's idea is to sway more people to buy a Gamecube. If The Twin Snakes was out on PS2, nobody'd play the GC remake. Ahh, business :)

There's been a lot of mention over the last few days of games about disasters. I'd like to bring up Disaster Report, which did a pretty good job of using a natural disaster as a basis for a thriller game. I think the extension of that to famous tragedies is only natural, but particularly for events like 9/11 I kind of wish they'd wait a few more years. Recency has a way of getting on people's nerves, and I get the feeling that anything touting recent tragedies is just trying to capitalize on it for profit. Once again: Ahh, business :)
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Post by Artemio »

There are more reasons for such a release.. such as mantaining what was said in MGS2: "Letting the newer generations retell stuff", "Keep the past alive", "Letting future generations carry on with digital information" etc....

That is besides the commercial reasons, the Miyamoto reason (wonder about that scene in Windwaker).
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Post by Warrior Bob »

Scene in Wind waker?
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Post by Artemio »

Warrior Bob wrote:Scene in Wind waker?
Link sneaking into the fortress....
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Post by Johnny Undaunted »

GcDiaz wrote:I'm referring to the original MGS players who would like nothing better than to see such a great game get the royal treatment. Isn't it a safe bet that most PS1 owners moved right up to the PS2, instead of the GCN? At the very least, he could've released it across multiple platforms, or even just PS2 and XBox, since those are the systems that had seen MGS games previously. I just don't see the rationale behind making such a game exclusive to that particular console.
So, only the PS2 and Xbox had any right to get a MGS1 remake just because they already had Metal Gear games previously released? That sounds like a typical fanboy's reasoning to me. By your logic, I'm guessing Square should've remained with Nintendo and stick with their overpriced cartridge media instead of going to Sony's camp and their cheaper CD-ROM format.

You also seem to ignore the fact that the original MGS (which Twin Snakes practically is) is already availble for the PS2 in the form of a PS1 game six years before the GameCube remake. PS games are backward-compatible with the PS2 too you know. The prospect of getting a remake of a game already playable for the platform just doesn't sound very exciting in my opinion. Why waste your internal resources remaking an old game, when you can make a new one (Snake Eater) instead?

Also, as it was already pointed out, Twin Snakes was only conceived by Kojima after Miyamoto personally requested the development of a new Metal Gear title for the GameCube. Kojima agreed to the deal under the condition that the game was a remake of the original MGS IIRC. Twin Snakes was only made out of a contractual obligation between Konami and Nintendo, not because Kojima wanted to do a remake of MGS. Same thing with MGS2S for the Xbox.
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Post by GcDiaz »

Explain to me what a "typical fanboy" is. You're convinced that I am one, despite the fact that you know jack-shit about me.

Do I really have to quote myself to show you that I did not say the game should've ONLY been released on PS2/XBOX? I believe the first alternative was "multiple platforms", which was certainly meant to include GCN.

"...the original MGS is already availble for the PS2 in the form of a PS1 game..."
Ya think??

Did you notice that the Kojima-Miyamoto connection was made apparent AFTER my post, not before? But thank you for trying to teach me what I already knew.

I hope that you are the exception and not the rule.
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Post by Johnny Undaunted »

GcDiaz wrote:Explain to me what a "typical fanboy" is. You're convinced that I am one, despite the fact that you know jack-shit about me.
I never said you were, nor did I intentionally implied otherwise. I'm just saying from experience that the whole "remake/sequel X needs to be in console A instead of console B, since company A's previous console had the original game in the series" argument is something a fanboy usually brings up (like when everyone was bitching when Mikami made the Resident Evil series a GameCube-exclusive). I'm sorry if I came off wrong, but there's no need for this riff-raff either.
Do I really have to quote myself to show you that I did not say the game should've ONLY been released on PS2/XBOX? I believe the first alternative was "multiple platforms", which was certainly meant to include GCN.
It seems that you have more agaisnt the game being on the GameCube with an "audience that wouldn't appreciate it" as much as PS2 or Xbox owners would than the game being a platform-exclusive.

"...the original MGS is already availble for the PS2 in the form of a PS1 game..."
Ya think??
You failed to see my point. Read the entire paragraph next time.
Did you notice that the Kojima-Miyamoto connection was made apparent AFTER my post, not before? But thank you for trying to teach me what I already knew.
Did you notice I was already aware of that? I originally wrote "Also, as it was already pointed out, Twin Snakes was only conceived by Kojima after Miyamoto personally requested the development of a new Metal Gear title for the GameCube. "

I hope that you are the exception and not the rule.
Exception to what? I wasn't acting like an elitist here, I'm just stating my opinion. If you think I was implying something, the least you could've done was ask first instead of making me look like a prick.
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

This was a great topic to read, I never thought of Twin Snakes as a 'contractual obligation' between Nintendo and Konami, but I certainly think that phrase rings true in a lot of ways.

I do have some respect for TS though, and to be honest, I'm glad it was on Gamecube. As Johnny said, why make it for PS2, when you can just play MGS (which is better)? But I'm just repeating what was said.

There is a lot of Kojima-Miyamoto relations in TS I think, as you mentioned, it was his massive respect that led to the game's creation. I don't think though, that it should really be part of the MGS 'canon', and even for that matter, the Kojima canon.
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Post by GcDiaz »

You guys really think TTS is worse than MGS1? How, when TTS has the cutscenes and MGS2 moves? I understand MGS1 is a classic - that alone carries a lot of weight - but what does TTS get wrong that it doesn't surpass the original?
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Post by Artemio »

Simple, the same harmony in construction.. seriousness, balance, excess of "cool" cutscenes, etc... They create a different game, thus a different experience. I bet you that they do not create the same feeling in the player nor they were targeted for the same market. They had different ones, and are liked as such. There is an interesection, I happen to agree on that.. but they are quite different games with different ends and means of emphatizing different things.

But as it was stated before, I am almost sure that I would love Twin Snakes if it had been the firt one I played (though I have my doubts I would have liked it as much).
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

MGS beats TTS in gameplay, simply because although there are extra moves, they just aren't used enough. And if they are, they make the game way too easy. When I first played TS I tore through it, shooting out cameras, taking out guards from afar, and generally exploiting the old level design with new first person shooting. I shouldn't have been able to do that. Also, the boss fights in TTS are on the whole, dire. I defeated Ocelot in less than a minute the first time I played it, and all the rest were equally easy. Where the rest of the game lets you use FPS to exploit its bad design, the boss battles do the same by not having them changed from the original. You can, in fact, not use the FPS in TTS battles at all. What a waste of a feature.

As for the cutscenes, they are a huge matter of subjectivity (personally I like them) but just because they look better graphically, or have more happening doesn't automatically mean they surpass the original. What is being said is the same. Also, there are some little things Kojima did with the camera in MGS that Kitamura has missed in his interpretation. I like TTS like I like the movie 'Roadhouse'. A good action movie, but nothing I get too engaged in.

That doesn't entirely justify MGS as being better than TTS, but I feel it goes some way towards it. Also, TTS has more bugs than MGS, making it a technically inferior game in my opinion.
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Post by Crowley »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:I do have some respect for TS though, and to be honest, I'm glad it was on Gamecube. As Johnny said, why make it for PS2, when you can just play MGS (which is better)? But I'm just repeating what was said.
Reminds me of what happens when you put a PC gamer to review a console FPS. The most likely comment: "This is complete crap."
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Post by Snake Plissken »

Spoiler:
"Wounds heal while your console is turned off. The game uses the PlayStation 2's internal clock to let you recuperate at the rate of a real person. If you still manage to die, "you can just press the Start button and try again," gripes Kojima. His dream is to make a game you can't restart - imagine a disc that self-destructs when you lose. Game over." Theres the final answer to the aresenal gear big shell thing (old news) but I just wanted to bring this up again.
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Post by Johnny Undaunted »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:MGS beats TTS in gameplay, simply because although there are extra moves, they just aren't used enough. And if they are, they make the game way too easy. When I first played TS I tore through it, shooting out cameras, taking out guards from afar, and generally exploiting the old level design with new first person shooting. I shouldn't have been able to do that. Also, the boss fights in TTS are on the whole, dire. I defeated Ocelot in less than a minute the first time I played it, and all the rest were equally easy. Where the rest of the game lets you use FPS to exploit its bad design, the boss battles do the same by not having them changed from the original. You can, in fact, not use the FPS in TTS battles at all. What a waste of a feature.

As for the cutscenes, they are a huge matter of subjectivity (personally I like them) but just because they look better graphically, or have more happening doesn't automatically mean they surpass the original. What is being said is the same. Also, there are some little things Kojima did with the camera in MGS that Kitamura has missed in his interpretation. I like TTS like I like the movie 'Roadhouse'. A good action movie, but nothing I get too engaged in.

That doesn't entirely justify MGS as being better than TTS, but I feel it goes some way towards it. Also, TTS has more bugs than MGS, making it a technically inferior game in my opinion.
Yeah, what he said.

But what really bothered me about Twin Snakes is the drop in acting quality compared to the original (localized) version. It had a whole "let's get this over with" quality, as if the actors were uninterested at having to do the same game twice. The only character who actually sounded better than the original was Grey Fox, who ironically enough was voiced by a different actor. I wonder what was the true purpose of rerecording the dialogue outside of changing lines that originally referred to the PlayStation's controller. The dialogue is virtually identical. They didn't even bother adding CODEC dialogue explaining the new gameplay functions added from MGS2. Sure, it used a more accurate-translation of the script, but Blaustein's localized translation was whole better than the flat dialogue they used in Twin Snakes.

While the cut-scenes in Twin Snakes had a more professional feel than those in the original game's, it's hard to deny Kitamura went overboard, especially with the use of bullet-time effects, when he directed the new scenes. Not every scene needed to look like they came out of the Matrix.

But what really bothered me about the game is the lack of replay values and unlockables outside of those from the original game (with the exception of Meryl's sneaking suit costume, and even that was derative of Integral) . The bandanna, stealth and camera are unlocked in the same manner as the original game and the game doesn't even bother giving a congratulatory message for getting all the dog tags.

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed Twin Snakes, but it's really nothing I would've lost sleep over if I didn't have a GameCube.
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Post by Marc »

GcDiaz wrote:You guys really think TTS is worse than MGS1? How, when TTS has the cutscenes and MGS2 moves? I understand MGS1 is a classic - that alone carries a lot of weight - but what does TTS get wrong that it doesn't surpass the original?
It's what's not included with the new movies and the moves that makes TTS inferior to MGS: the overall feeling you get from the game. TTS feels sloppy, and doesn't have the heart that MGS has. Not to mention the better music, better voices, and the fact that it came out over 6 years ago and started all of this.

If KOJ had dedicated themselves to doing a proper MGS remake in-house, we would have gotten something better than MGS, quite possibly. But they didn't, and I wouldn't have wanted them to waste their time on something like that. We have MGS3 coming up, which looks better than anything else and is more than likely going to make everyone forget about MGS, MGS2, and Twin Snakes for a very long time.
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Post by Snake Plissken »

Twin snakes sucked in every way

1. bad control
2. stuff redone which didn't need to be
3. it's like watching a remake of rocky 4 if there was one cinimatic wise.
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Post by Rick Deckard »

Snake Plissken wrote:it's like watching a remake of rocky 4 if there was one cinimatic wise.
Exactly the same I'd say.
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Post by Ninja Kurosai »

Well, I did enjoy some of the remade music, it has an urban feel to it. NOTE: Only one song "Tank Hanger". Otherwise, I think the models they used for the characters were too polished and clean. Compare anyone from MGS2 to TTS and you will see what I mean. I still enjoyed it as a game, but it wasn't that good as a Metal Gear game.
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