MGS3 Ending Analysis and Discussion [Definitely SPOILERS]

Discussion related to the most well-known series by Kojima. News, debate and any related discussions are welcome. IMPORTANT Any topics related to MGS4 should temporarily go in the appropriate forum. Please keep spoilers out of signatures too.
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MGS3 Ending Analysis and Discussion [Definitely SPOILERS]

Post by Painaxl »

Ok, since I only know one other person in real life who's playing MGS3 and I need to talk about this ending, I thought I'd take my discussion here.

[This will be in spoiler text form (since this is the first post), but all other spoilers in this thread will be out in the open. You've been warned.]

A recap of the final plotpoints for discussion:

Boss reveals to Snake that she was one of the agents in the Bay of Pigs Invasion, she was shot into space(?) and that she participated at D-Day during which she gave birth on the battlefield. Her baby was stolen by the "Philosophers" later to become the "<B>Patriots</B>." Her father was one of the Wisemen's Committee, the group that became the figurehead of the "<B>Patriots</B>." She gives the Legacy to Snake before she dies.

Eva steals the legacy after seducing Snake because she's a spy for China. However, she reveals to Snake that the Boss's mission all along was to retake the legacy for the U.S. That's why she "defected." However, once the Davy Crockett was fired, the government had to kill her to prove that they were not involved in the attack. Basically, she'll be remembered as a traitor and a criminal for carrying out her mission.

Snake meets the president, the first seeds of Foxhound are born and he puts flowers and the la-li-lu-le-lo at the grave of The Boss (however, if this is the Boss's grave, why is she listed as a la-li-lu-le-lo who died for her country, if she's going to be remembered as a criminal like Eva said).

In the obligitory "final call" scene, Ocelot is first talking "Head Chairman"(?), explaining that the legacy is gone and Kruschev is finished. Then, he tells the head of the Philosophers that the Boss gave Snake a fake copy of the legacy and that the real one was in his hands for the Philosophers. With the money from the legacy, the Philosophers of the U.S. can become strong again (i.e. "the <B>Patriots</B>"). He says that he'd been triple-crossing the Russians (Russia/U.S./Philosophers?) and that no one realized that he was really ADAM, the NSA codebreaker who'd "defected."


Ok, there's my quick rundown. Again, feel free to type in normal font. I just wanted the first post to be in spoiler mode just in case.
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Post by GcDiaz »

Other forums are debating whether the Boss' son is Raiden (but he's way too young in MGS2 for that) or Ocelot (and he seems too young in MGS3 to be her son either),
although Kojima has stated that in any inter-game story conflict, MGS3's takes precedence over all others. I now understand why there are <B>Patriots</B> (Americans dedicated to their cause) as opposed to Philosophers (the big conglomerate). Somebody somewhere must have a FAQ with all the Philosopher/la-li-lu-le-lo timelines organized...I have to go back and play MGS2 now to get Solidus' perspective, and then 3 again for The Boss. Tell you one thing; if I was Big Boss, I'd be dreaming of Outer Heaven too. Do you suppose he stole the Metal Gear plans from the CIA?

EDIT: Oh, WTF?? How does this forum know to replace p-a-t-r-i-o-t with LaLiLuLeLo??
It's clever, but there's a difference between the Boss' gun and the organization.
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Post by Painaxl »

GcDiaz wrote:Other forums are debating whether the Boss' son is Raiden (but he's way too young in MGS2 for that) or Ocelot (and he seems too young in MGS3 to be her son either),
I think it's a completely natural explaination that Ocelot is the Boss's son. After all, her son was born at Normandy (June, 1944) and MGS takes place in 1964, making Ocelot about 20 years old. I think he looks the part.

It would also explain why Ocelot is working for the Philosophers (since he was raised by them).
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Post by Johnny Undaunted »

Just for the record, Ocelot IS The Boss's son. There's a huge hint earlier in the game when you talk to Eva via the radio.
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Post by Artemio »

Johnny Undaunted wrote:Just for the record, Ocelot IS The Boss's son. There's a huge hint earlier in the game when you talk to Eva via the radio.

Not to mention the leaked documents.
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Post by Johnny Undaunted »

Snatcher wrote:Not to mention the leaked documents.
True, but I only cited the game itself since it's a firsthand source in this case, just to be on the safe side.


Basically, Eva mentions that Ocelot's mother was shot in the gut during labor in World War II, which resulted in a snake-shaped scar when Ocelot was born.
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Post by Painaxl »

I was thinking about the end this weekend...

It's pretty amazing how this story pretty much shows the rationale of the major enemies of all 4 main timeline games in such a way as to make us experience them. It's not like a movie/comic book/whatever where you have a five minute monologue while the enemy has the hero captured (although there are a couple of those). You actually become the enemy and learn through his experiences.

I realize the obvious Star Wars prequel parallels, but since I don't really get down with that, I'll avoid them.

Eva says the Boss was a "patryot", however, she was working toward her ends, which just happen to be a unified world under one single control. Sounds more like a la-li-lu-le-lo to me. Is it events like these that prompted the name change from Philosophers [those who philosophized about a unified world with complete control] to <B>Patriots</B> [those that took action to accomplish those feats]?

I've heard that if you press R1 during the meeting with the president at the end, you'll see Ocelot outside of the window, prompting the pause that we see when Snake shakes the hand of the president. If that's the case, I wonder how much the president himself knew at this point. That's seriously awesome, and I have to work all the way back to the end to see that.

Days later, the ending still rules.
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Post by GcDiaz »

YEAH!! I was wondering why Snake had that startled look on his face. Thankfully I still had that save file, so I tried R1 and there he was, doing his hand gesture thru the window. Just imagine how much that little moment must've revealed to Snake (I mean, it's not everyone who gets to hang out outside the President's window!) . I think the Patryots and Philosophers are two different entities. As in, The <B>Patriots</B> are really the American branch of the Philos, seeking independence from the whole (hence, P-a-t-r-i-o-t-s).

I never had that convo with Eva regarding the scar...but how does the Boss' scar mean that she birthed Ocelot? I althought it was just a field cesarean section.

EDIT: And yes, the ending definitely rules. I'm gonna go watch it again. :lol:
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Post by Painaxl »

This is the transcript ripped from the convo.

Jack: EVA, I wanted to ask you about Ocelot…
EVA: Yeah, I know. He’s pretty infatuated with you, isn’t he?
Jack: That’s not what I meant. Aren’t the Ocelots an elite unit?
EVA: Yeah.
Jack: So how’d he get to be their commander? He can’t be any older than 18 or 19. I can’t believe he’s already a major…
EVA: I heard from the Colonel that he’s been given…special treatment.
Jack: Special treatment?
EVA: Yeah. He’s the son of some legendary hero or something.
Jack: No wonder he seems to have the right stuff… So who is this legendary hero, anyway?
EVA: Beats me.
Jack: …
EVA: The Colonel never told me. All I heard was that his mother was supposedly shot in the gut during battle and that he was born right there, with bullets whizzing past them.
Jack: A pregnant woman in the middle of a battle?
EVA: That’s what I heard. They say that when they stitched her up, the scar was shaped like a snake.
Jack: Well, that’s battlefield medicine for you. What about his father, this legendary hero?
EVA: He didn’t tell me. I don’t think Ocelot’s ever met his parents.
Jack: Are they dead?
EVA: Maybe, I don’t know. There were a lot of MIAs back then, during the last days of the war. Ocelot probably would have ended up the same way. But he was taken in and raised by GRU and Volgin.
Jack: Because he was special?
EVA: That’s my guess.
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Post by GcDiaz »

This explains everything. Damn, wish I'd known this before The Boss told me what she did. Thanks, dude.
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Erm..

Post by Randam »

So if this is correct than the baby daddy is none other than The Sorrow? Sheesh..imagine that portriat "Mom..Dad's crying blood again! Now we have to take another". I wonder if something from each of their gene codes infused into Ocelot..Adam..whatever. Like if Ocelot can predict the future....or something like that. (That "battle" pissed me off! I didnt know I just had to take a friggin' pill!) But it explains Ocelot's skill with guns, at least he didnt try to rip aparts your guns in the Solid series.
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Post by Artemio »

Johnny Undaunted wrote:
Snatcher wrote:Not to mention the leaked documents.
True, but I only cited the game itself since it's a firsthand source in this case, just to be on the safe side.
I understand why... though I had to keep the secret for 8 months, I was there at Konami with Scott and Kojima the day they were leaked. *sigh*
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Post by ReasonWhyNot »

This doesn't relate to the ending, but I heard a theory that says Sigint may actually be a young Donald Anderson (DARPA Chief). I personally think he might instead be his father because of the age Sigint would be in 2005. Since he's 28 in MGS3, he'd be 69 by the time MGS1 occurs and that doesn't seem right. And you could say this ties along with the theme of what people pass along to future generations. But besides being the same skin color, we know that Sigint founded ARPAnet, which is in part responsible for DARPA.
Last edited by ReasonWhyNot on Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sigint

Post by shoryuken_justice »

I read somewhere in response to the Sigint/DARPA claims that ARPAnet has nothing to do with DARPA and that ARPAnet is actually just the beginning of what would become the internet. Although I agree with Solid Snake; "I don't believe in coincedences." I prefer to think Anderson was Sigint.
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Post by Johnny Undaunted »

Perhaps, Sigint and the DARPA chief are two unrelated characters after all. I mean *GASP*, can you imagine two black guys unrelated to each other working for the same organization? What a novel concept! :roll:

Seriously, I don't see why Sigint has to be the DARPA chief when they barely resemble each other and Sigint is alot older than the Chief (who seems to be in his fifties) anyway.
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Post by Proffesor Lambeau »

Anyone care to fill in the gaps for me regarding the philosophers and the <B>Patriots</B>? I understand most of what they said about the philosophers, but I don't get how they turned into a government controlling secret body, or how and why they created GW and continue to somehow live on.

Also, is Raikov anyway affiliated with Raiden, or is kojima just screwing with us?
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I dunno...

Post by shoryuken_justice »

If there's two things we've learned from anime, it's that

1. Black people look, talk and think alike
2. There's only like 4 of them who ever lived

The only ones I can think of are the bounty hunter chick and the watermelon salesman in the mushroom episode of Bebop, and two punks that Zenigata beat up in one of the Lupin movies.





I'm not racist... just trying to make a cute observation...

Man, I'm an idiot.
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Raikov-Raiden

Post by shoryuken_justice »

I think it was just a way of Kojima humoring the American fans who hated Raiden (although I'm sure there were some in the east who weren't too happy about him either). By making a high-pitch voiced girly man who has no balls and has a homosexual relationship with Volgin was probably just a jab at Raiden (or at least, many's perception of him), in the way that Treasure Cat was killed brutally in the last episode of Mr. Wong and what I'm hoping they do to Tornado Shanks on Sealab.

That being said, I don't think Raiden is his son, for as I said, he lacks half (or two-thirds) of the necessary tools for reproduction. He may have a brother, or he may have had a son (Raiden's dad, most likely) with someone before Volgin or whoever tore his nads off.

Man... that hurts just typing it.
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Post by Proffesor Lambeau »

Where do you get the impression that Raikov lost his gonads? When volgin felt up snake he could tell it wasn't Raikov, but not because Raikov was missing them.

Either way, I was hoping he'd play more of a role-- I really liked the angle kojima took with raiden in MGS2 and it's a bit disapointing to see him as a sort of joke here. I swear people are shallow if they don't like a character just because he's a bit effeminate.

By the way, I just watched the TGS trailer again and it's made me realize what a lack of personality the english dubs have. Snake sounds much more fitting to the voice and sounds a hell of a lot more appropriate in every situation-- for me Hayter was great in the first two games as Solid, but it doesn't work this time for some reason. Also, I think i'm going to mute every line of dialouge Ocelot has the next time I play.

On the other hand, paramedic, the fury, volgin and especially Eva and major zero were great. Although the lack of any sort of lip syncing and accents really hurts.
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Touchy Subject about genitals

Post by shoryuken_justice »

I don't want to get too detailed, but with a quick grab, it's a little hard to tell one dinky from another (hehe... dinky) unless there's a severe difference in size. However, because his voice is so high, and a complete lack of berries is much easier to determine on a quick frisk, I think that the intention was that Raikov was gonad-less.

On a separate note, I also liked Raiden. I think when people look at it like it was written in the ending analysis, that MGS2 is really still about Solid Snake with Raiden as the cameraman, they don't get as infuriated. I think the character was supposed to draw some ire, however, from those who fancy themselves like Snake. Snake is a simple, by-the-book commando who just gets things done. No flare, no witty exit line, just gets it done usually in an underspoken badass fashion. Raiden represents the "new" breed of spies we are seeing. He's got these fancy upside-down splits when he flips, he does swan dives when flipping over railings, he's the stylistic upgrade. He's the Buzz Lightyear to Snake's... err... Woody.
The difference here is that Snake isn't necessarily jealous. Instead, he kind of looks at him like the Cal Ripken/Manny Alexander shot (For those of you who don't know sports well, that was when Cal Ripken, one of the best shortstops in history, is told to move to third because there's a hot new prospect named Manny Alexander coming in at short. The first game they play at their new position, Alexander bobbles an important play and eventually costs the Orioles the game. After the inning, Alexander is sitting next to Ripken in the dugout, with Alexander fuming over his mistake and Ripken staring off into the outfield with somewhat of a vengeful smile... one of the greatest shots in sports history... but I digress). Raiden is the hotshot new kid whom everyone is predicting big things for. Snake sees him as kind of a pest, and the audience is supposed to do this to. It then takes the rest of the game to bring Raiden back to earth and endear him to us, which succeeds if you keep an open mind about the guy.

Okay, that made no sense, did it...
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Post by Johnny Undaunted »

It's obvious that Raikov's presence in the game was just for comic relief and not meant to be taken seriously as one of Raiden's potential ancestor, since you can kill Raikov and not get a time paradox (provided that you don't get caught of course).
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Post by Rolman »

I think MGS2 has lost a lot of weight in the series, and for the better. As mentioned before, MGS3 now takes precedence to everything. Just the same Kojima did when he basically rewrote MGS1's storyline on MGS2's "Previous Missions" in order to accomodate new characters and situations.

But, this time around MGS1's storyline is kept almost intact and some concepts from MGS2 (<B>Patriots</B> and such) are rewritten, now there are no memes/presidents as the front-end, there are actual human beings as part of this organization which now is not America-centric, and Raiden is treated like a comic-relief to boot. As much as I liked MGS2, I'm happy Kojima didn't try to go out of his way to make everything across the entire series to match, I'm happy letting it go.

Days after seeing the ending a couple of times in a row, I'm still impressed and hooked into the game and the masterful storytelling, I resisted for months the strong temptation to see those infamous leaked documents and other spoilers, and it REALLY paid off in the end (I feel sorry for you, Snatcher, we were both in Japan at that time, but you just didn't have a choice).

The only thing I didn't like at all is when Ocelot reveals he's ADAM over the phone. It's already enough that he reveals his true name (Adamska) to Snake/Big Boss (John) and EVA explains about her false codename, with the spy password combination putting the cherry on top. I felt making that so explicit was totally unnecessary, like if he said "Yes Mr. Director, no one found out I'm The Boss' son" =P But well, it's a minor complain, at least compared to those I had in MGS2.

I guess my opinion would've been different were I weak enough to give in and see those documents before playing the game.
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Post by Artemio »

Rolman wrote:I guess my opinion would've been different were I weak enough to give in and see those documents before playing the game.

I flly gree with you but on that last sentence.... I jusr over-read the thing that day....not fully.. I agree it was enough to shout "Ph my eeeeeyes", since ithe sentence I read said all about Ocelot and Big Boss, mostly... but It really didn't ruin it all.

I guess you would have the exact same opinion, but the strength of what you felt would had been minimized... (which is enough damage thiugh).

I'll have to put up a page about how all this changes MGS2.... since now, more than ever, Raiden was being even more manipulated... now all was make believe on top of what was real, and we can separate reality from fgiction in that last conversation with Raiden.

Everythig still applies, just half tuths are show there to control Raiden even more, and the <B>Patriots</B> true form is just mystified to enlarge and dramatize how powerful they did become after all. And to create a smoke screen of course.

I justbelieve that everything has to be seen under the new light... Time for a Coffee Rolman =), I need to reevaluate all =)

Indeed, a great game that felt like playing Snatcher (only waaaay too updated in technology and different gameplay, but still....)... Thanks for bringing back and experience that was on par of the past games Kojima, I am a happy man.
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Post by ReasonWhyNot »

Johnny Undaunted wrote:Perhaps, Sigint and the DARPA chief are two unrelated characters after all. I mean *GASP*, can you imagine two black guys unrelated to each other working for the same organization? What a novel concept!
What's with the attitude? Can't skin color hint at a possible relationship between two people? It's just a theory. One that I didn't even come up with.
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Post by Johnny Undaunted »

ReasonWhyNot wrote:"Perhaps, Sigint and the DARPA chief are two unrelated characters after all. I mean *GASP*, can you imagine two black guys unrelated to each other working for the same organization? What a novel concept!"

Please don't make me out like some racist. That sh*t just pisses me off. God damn I can't stand that sh*t. Look, it's just a theory, all right. I didn't even come up with it. Someone else brought the idea to my attention. I liked it. I think it makes sense. Besides, Kojima is always relating his characters with one another in his games, even if it doesn't make complete sense. Take Otacon for example. I don't hear anybody saying that guy in Granin's picture who looked like Otacon (but was most likely his father) was probably a totally unrelated character and couldn't possibly be related just because he wears glasses, has a crazy hairstyle, and is white. And did Granin not supposedly develop the specs for Rex, even though Otacon says he did in MGS1?? See, not everything will make sense. Read in between the lines. And don't piss me off.
Oh, just quit whining and be a man. I'm just speaking what came to my mind. Not once did I accusse you of being racist, so there's no need to be a crybaby. I'm just saying why I think the whole Sigint/DARPA theory is invalid (and yes I'm aware you're not the first person to brough it, noticed that I've never said that you did).
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