Who are the Patriots?

Discussion related to the most well-known series by Kojima. News, debate and any related discussions are welcome. IMPORTANT Any topics related to MGS4 should temporarily go in the appropriate forum. Please keep spoilers out of signatures too.
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Nekura_Hoka
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Post by Nekura_Hoka »

Snatcher wrote:Well, I think that we must stablish the assumptions (since we need to create CONTEXT, oh the irony):

1) What was said to Raiden is true under the light that he doesn't matter.
2) The <B>la li lu le lo</B> are a sentient life-form that evolved from (human (usa)) culture
3) Their purpose to create Arsenal gear is to test their S3 system, a system to control and select memes that are supposed to be 'good' for the human race, since natural selection cannot happen in the current niformation flow where every piece is kept.

And just one more comment, we are not attacking you or your work in a personal level, just in a way that you can restructure the thing and make it even better. I believe that the audience of this forums seeks greater understanding of many such themes, and that stuff can be seen under different lights.
I agree with your points Snatcher, I don't consider them in dispute. I'd also agree that you aren't waging a personal attack, nothing in your posts has indicated such. I hope you haven't construed that I beleive such.

Jonathan I see now by your last two posts that you think this is a diversion, but if you'd rather talk about the overall themes of MGS2 then do so by starting a new thread please. My point here was to talk about the <B>Patriots</B>' origins and nature assuming that what the colonel/jfk said about them is true. You think the nature of <B>Patriots</B> is a diversion to the theme of MGS2, I think the overall theme of MGS2 is a diversion to the thread lol.

Also the reason I said the information from a colonel AI with no affiliation with the <B>Patriots</B> is suspect is that if it is not affiliated with them then it is unknown where its information comes from. You seem to agree with me that in one fashion or another the <B>Patriots</B> are communicating with Raiden there, so the point about them being inhuman is made.
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Read what I have written Nekura-san, I clearly state that the colonel IS related to the <B>Patriots</B>, in that they have programmed him/it to say what suits them. The point about THEM being inhuman is not made at all. For all I know, YOU could be a computer program. I simply stated that the colonel could, under all the arguments you yourself presented, be an "AI" - this does not say the <B>Patriots</B> are inhuman. YOU said that, and as far as I can see, you can't back it up with any irrefutable argument.

This is a forum, forum meaning a place for people to discuss and trade opinions. I'm simply saying that your argument is flawed. If it is as you say a theory, then fair enough - but you shouldn't have published it on the web without the expectation that it should be challenged. Hell, if I didn't challenge it, I'd simply be buying into the <B>Patriots</B>'s plan, which is why, although I feel this argument of their origin to be irrelevant, I have to reply to your proposals about them, because they are massively flawed proposals.

You said "My point here was to talk about the la li lu le lo' origins and nature assuming that what the colonel/jfk said about them is true"

I never once implied that what the colonel said was not true. And this is central to my argument - that you are trying to create a theory which the text of MGS2 simply does not support. I have shown all of your arguments to be open to a weighty counter-attack. If I said "MGS2 is about class relations, as Raiden is clearly subjugated by Snake" you could easily refute that, and come up with countless retorts showing that money, status and political position in the protagonist are simply not backed up. This is what I'm saying about your theory - you have created these theories about the <B>Patriots</B>'s origin, but just as I reasoned Raiden is subjugated by Snake, you reason they are electronic - both arguments are wide open to opposition. And this is the opposition I'm making.

Although in truth, I'm not so much making an opposing argument to yours, but actually refuting it. All your theories can be easily discounted, and this is why I hope you'll re-think your essay, which is actually very well written, into an evolved essay - which is the key to MGS[2].
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Post by Johnny Undaunted »

Rolman wrote:Regarding to why the la li lu le lo is spelled that way, I'd like to add some more of its roots. The order of the vowels (a, i, u, e, o) is the one used in the japanese language and the letter "L" (or its phoneme) doesn't really exist in japanese. Start making your own conclusions about that =)
It's not so much that the letter "L" doesn't, but rather the fact that the two sounds are interchangeable. In the Japanese version, it's pronounce rarirrurero (not that they had much of a choice in that matter).
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Post by Nekura_Hoka »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:Read what I have written Nekura-san, I clearly state that the colonel IS related to the <B>la li lu le lo</B>, in that they have programmed him/it to say what suits them. The point about THEM being inhuman is not made at all. For all I know, YOU could be a computer program. I simply stated that the colonel could, under all the arguments you yourself presented, be an "AI" - this does not say the <B>la li lu le lo</B> are inhuman. YOU said that, and as far as I can see, you can't back it up with any irrefutable argument.
I didn't make the point of the <B>Patriots</B> inhumanity, Kojima did:
The Document of Metal Gear Solid wrote:P080_19_R01 AG Ascent 19 Codec demo 1
Codec screen

The Colonel’s voice is now clearly an electronically synthesized one,
occasionally switching to Rose’s voice. No visual of the Colonel; static
instead, with occasional insertion of the previous title’s Colonel picture.
Occasionally use a skull model.

Colonel:
Raiden, are you receiving? We’re (The <B>Patriots</B>) still here.
Raiden:
How’s that possible!? The AI was destroyed!
Colonel:
Only GW... Implying that there are still other sets of Arsenal and AI.
In this case, the ‘speaker’ is JFK.
Raiden:
Who are you?
Colonel:
To begin with -- we’re not what you’d call - human.

To AG Ascent 20 movie demo 9
You can make the argument that this is all a lie. There is as much evidence that this is a lie as there is that anything else in the game is a lie, so discussion of any information from the Colonel and Rose (memes, genes, <B>Patriots</B> and all) is quite moot since there are no facts to discuss.

If it is not a lie, then the notation "(The <B>Patriots</B>)" after the Colonel says "we're" indicates that it is directly or indirectly the <B>Patriots</B> communicating to Raiden. This means the <B>Patriots</B> are telling raiden that they are inhuman, they could be lying, but doesn't that undermine their role in Kojima's arguments about memes? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Remember, I'm predicating the theory on this quote from Kojima's script being truthful.
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Jonathan Ingram wrote: Read what I have written Nekura-san, I clearly state that the colonel IS related to the la li lu le lo, in that they have programmed him/it to say what suits them. The point about THEM being inhuman is not made at all. For all I know, YOU could be a computer program. I simply stated that the colonel could, under all the arguments you yourself presented, be an "AI" - this does not say the la li lu le lo are inhuman. YOU said that, and as far as I can see, you can't back it up with any irrefutable argument.
Yes, sorry about that. Tuesday night is my drinking night, and I was completely wrong. I think that what I was getting at though is that I still believe the <B>Patriots</B> to be communicating with Jack not directly, but through this program that is the colonel, a pre-configured one designed to tell Jack what he needs to know when he needs to know it (and that is not at all to say that the final section of the game is at all suspect). I mistook 'inhuman' for 'electronic' in my drunken haze. They are of course inhuman, as they say they are as you mentioned, but I still feel that your arguments about them being electronic are flawed. And I'd like to apologise for any aggression in any of my posts, I got a little over heated, and feel I may not have been fully respecting your opinions. [/quote]
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Post by Warrior Bob »

I don't really have anything to add, only that I think this is the most interesting forum thread I've read in several months. Kudos :)
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Uhhh...

Post by shoryuken_justice »

I apologize a thousand times beforehand, as this has probably been asked thousands of times, but what is the deal with the censoring on the board of... er... you know. Do you have some sort of prejudice against the defending Super Bowl Champion New England <B>Patriots</B>? Just curious...
Alright stop.

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Re: Uhhh...

Post by Artemio »

shoryuken_justice wrote:I apologize a thousand times beforehand, as this has probably been asked thousands of times, but what is the deal with the censoring on the board of... er... you know. Do you have some sort of prejudice against the defending Super Bowl Champion New England <B>la li lu le lo</B>? Just curious...
Does it really need explanation or are you joking? =P
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...

Post by shoryuken_justice »

Unfortunately, a little of both :(

As much as I claim to love the Metal Gear games, I guess I never understood the whole <B>Patriots</B> thing. I mean, I understand the basics (they are a secret, unseen organization who runs the country behind POTUSA's back) and who works for them (Ocelot), but I actually didn't realize that the La Li Lu Le Lo and the... organization with the same name as the Gillette Stadium tenants where the same until this game (which makes me feel like a complete idiot). Still, from reading these posts, I've seen you've added the filter as a joke. All I can say is, I don't get it. Not that it's not funny, mind you. If I did, I'd think it was turbo extreme. Can I get a little explanation? I don't recall the organization with the similar name as the Tom Brady Bunch ever being censored. If I remember correctly, Ocelot, President Jim Johnson, Solidus, Gurlokovich, just about everyone calls them both the La Li Lu Le Lo and the... other guys...

I'm sure it's a light, simple joke that I'm giving way too much thought towards, but I'm only doing that because deep down I think it's a conspiracy that everyone's trying to trick me.

And I'd hate for that to happen...
Alright stop.

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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

The Patri0ts are the <B>Patriots</B>, the nanomachines in all the people you mention prevent them from saying "Patri0ts" and replaces it with <B>Patriots</B>. Not too hard to understand no?
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Ahhh

Post by shoryuken_justice »

I see.


... But then I swear I'm going crazy, because I distinctly remember everyone I listed specifically making a noise that rhymes with Nay-Tree-Utz. Is this just something in the Japanese version I'm not aware about?

I understand I'm taking this too far, and I'm probably going to interrupt my MGS3 replaying just to re-beat MGS2 to write down each mention of <B>Patriots</B> and the other guys.
Alright stop.

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Post by Artemio »

As a matter oif fact it is just a Joke... As Jonathan saysa, teher was this ongoing theory of censorship on the name. I just though it would be fun to put it in here, and I honestly though no one would find about it
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