Metal Gear & the supernatural

Discussion related to the most well-known series by Kojima. News, debate and any related discussions are welcome. IMPORTANT Any topics related to MGS4 should temporarily go in the appropriate forum. Please keep spoilers out of signatures too.
Post Reply
User avatar
Crowley
Runner
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:06 am
Location: Suomi, ulkomaanpellet!

Metal Gear & the supernatural

Post by Crowley »

I just don't like supernatural elements in Metal Gear games. It just doesn't fit for me. In MGS Vulcan Raven's shamanism and Psycho Mantis' psychic powers were tolerable, but in MGS2 Vamp and Fortune went way too far. Now what I've heard of the bosses in Snake Eater worries me even more. What do we have here... a guy who has some kind of mental control over bees (or was that hornets?) and a guy who apparently summons the ghosts of the dead to attack Snake. And a electrokinetic Colonel. I guess my biggest problem is how greatly this conflicts with the overall style of the game. I will probably get the game if it's ever ported to PC, but I have a feeling my enjoyment will be greatly impaired by fighting comic book supervillains.
Rolman
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:07 pm

Post by Rolman »

I understand your concern, I found Liquid's arm in MGS2 a very cheap, disappointing excuse for a villain, it really destroyed any sense of realism for me, I've been Kojima's hardcore fan for a long time and it pains me to say that for a moment I couldn't tell the difference between MGS2's storyline and some other lame cosmic/time-shifting/mutant story. Whether that was intentional, is another subject that's been discussed for a long time.

You may be right that MGS3's bosses are way too supernatural, they feel like if they were extracted right from a 60's comic book (X-Men might be a good example). Just remember it's Kojima we're talking about here, and this time it didn't come out as silly as MGS2's bulletproof skating fat bomber or irritating as the gravity-defying homosexual vampire. MGS3 is about the experience of playing, the uniqueness of each boss fight and finding clever ways to defeat them even if they do have powers and should be superior to you.

MGS1's boss characters were more human and realistic, and thus the fights were more linear. Just comparing the battle with Sniper Wolf to that with The End is enough to see the incredible difference of how keeping an open mind will award you a much deeper experience. MGS1 is still my favorite game of the trilogy because the characters were very deep and more realistic overall, with the mysticism really adding to their profiles in a positive way, but I'll take MGS3's boss fights over MGS1's. It's such a pity that MGS:TTS didn't expand on that.

There's just so much to do in MGS3 and so many ways to accomplish your goals. I'd advise you to follow along Kojima's way of fantastic storytelling and play it now on the PS2, don't wait for ports (MGS1 PC port is sooo lame, remember Kojima will never handle those ports himself). The characters may seem too unrealistic at times, but the storyline is as much "down to Earth" as it can be. You won't be dissapointed this time.
Last edited by Rolman on Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Otaku no naka no otaku, Otaking da!!!
User avatar
Artemio
Site Admin
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:33 am
Favorite Game: Snatcher! ... no wait, Policenauts...
Kojima games owned: http://junkerhq.net/kojima.html
PSN: Artemio
Wii Friend Code: 6335316353781527
Xbox Live: JunkerHQ
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Post by Artemio »

I happen to agree with you guys. I have assimilated such elements with time, and accepted them. But remember, it always reads worse in paper than what he actaully can do.. when I knew what the bosses were like months ago, I was terribly afraid of hod bad they sounded, when I played it.. a whole different thing.. greatly executed, as always...
From the mathematical perspective, consciousness might be regarded as a second derivative of sensation.
-- Terrel Miedaner

[Junker HQ]
User avatar
shoryuken_justice
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:25 pm
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

...

Post by shoryuken_justice »

I must admit, however, that the character development behind the bosses was a little lacking in MGS3. Of course, this may only be so because they don't give you half-hour speeches after you kill them, but I personally liked the long-winded dialogues before death. Especially Mantis.

(Side note: I didn't have as much of a problem with TTS as others, but the one thing that angered me was when they changed Mantis's last line... that was my favorite quote of the game and they sterilized it...)

Anyways, I do, however, agree that the battles themselves are awesome. I was kind of dissapointed in the Fury, though. While the fire effects were the best I've ever seen in a video game, his character didn't make a hell of a lot of sense, at least to me.

EDIT: I should rephrase that. The Boss had tons of development, it was just her Cobra buddies that were kinda shallow.
Alright stop.

Hammer Time!
User avatar
Snake Plissken
Major
Posts: 573
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:01 am
Favorite Game: Mega Man 2
Location: Busted Kiddy Pool In The Front Yard
Contact:

Post by Snake Plissken »

You mean Crowley you did not like the final mystery mission on the MGS VR!? :P

HAHAHAAHAHAH
Image
User avatar
Crowley
Runner
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:06 am
Location: Suomi, ulkomaanpellet!

Post by Crowley »

Snatcher wrote:I happen to agree with you guys. I have assimilated such elements with time, and accepted them. But remember, it always reads worse in paper than what he actaully can do.. when I knew what the bosses were like months ago, I was terribly afraid of hod bad they sounded, when I played it.. a whole different thing.. greatly executed, as always...
I would personally differentiate between how the actual boss battles play out and the logic behind them. Sniper Wolf could've teleported around and used a laser rifle without the actual battles being a whole lot different. Granted, I haven't played Snake Eater and thus don't have a very good picture of what the battles are like. Though from what I've read some of the bosses seem to have the logic of a Bond villain. "I shall send a slow-moving swarm of bees to deliver a grenade instead of just throwing one." "Now, Mr. Snake, I shall slowly electrocute you to death instead of just getting a gun and shooting you full of holes."
Rolman
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:07 pm

Post by Rolman »

LOL I liked your Bond analogy, and for the most part you're right, but there's a reason behind the enemies behaving like they do. They'd lack a lot of character if they were just soldiers with a high AI and some special powers, that'd make MGS kind of a third-person Halo.

I like Kojima's games because of the clever, wacky ideas and their execution. If you want a mindless shooter where the enemy really is out there to kill you without compromises, try Halo, but then I'd complain about how unrealistic is to be able to have checkpoints in life. MGS has never tried to be too realistic or too supernatural, it's about the great experience it provides. Playing MGS3 will not make you look silly, it's very cool and quite challenging in the higher difficulty settings, sure there are many gags but it's a lot of fun if you keep an open mind. And the storyline is great, maybe up to par with the one from MGS1 for the first time.

That said, I agree that MGS1's Foxhound bosses were the best, the Cobras are not that good, but they are still way better than those Cell guys from MGS2.
Otaku no naka no otaku, Otaking da!!!
User avatar
Jonathan Ingram
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:34 pm
Location: Old L.A.
Contact:

Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Indeed, Foxhound is still the best 'baddie' unit, then the Cobras, then Deadcell, and in terms of the battles, MGS3 outstrips them all.

Although they do have strange 'powers', they are to some extent explained (The Pain stood around a hornets' nest for days until they accepted him as one of them; The Fear is double jointed and has a surgically modified tongue; The End is just... old and mysterious?; The Fury was enraged with humanity, as he too saw that there was no "East and West" on the Earth) but these explanations aside, as Para-Medic says, "you have to suspend your disbelief". At first I found it hard to swallow, but after actually fighting The End, I love him. One of my favourite gaming experiences to date.

Of course, you may just not like the 'supernatural' element in your video games, and that's fair enough, but as Rolman said, when games get too realistic, they'd get too hard. If Volgin did just shoot you, that wouldn't make for much of a game now would it? Same as if Scaramanga just shot Bond. Part of the enjoyment of these games/films comes from knowing the outcome. Knowing the hero will save the day, and you let yourself be used by the devices of suspense, resting easy that all will be OK. This is especially related to MGS3, as the outcome is inevitable, being set in the past 'n' all.
"But nothing is permanent... only change"
User avatar
Painaxl
Runner
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:52 am

Post by Painaxl »

Rolman wrote: MGS3 is about the experience of playing, the uniqueness of each boss fight and finding clever ways to defeat them even if they do have powers and should be superior to you.
I think this sums up what I think is the great point of the supernatural bosses:

Snake can take them all with no real supernatural powers.

Now, one can argue that Snake can take an abnormal amount of punishment, but that's about standard for a videogame character. Really, though, I think the craziness of the bosses are there not only for entertainment value, but also to strengthen the legend of Snake.

MGS3 seemed to go backwards in terms of craziness of boss abilities. With the exception of the Sorrow (who, if you are a stickler, never physically appears in the game), all the characteristics can be explained fairly well.

Oh yeah, and remember, in MGS2, Fortune (until the end) never had any real powers.
User avatar
Artemio
Site Admin
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:33 am
Favorite Game: Snatcher! ... no wait, Policenauts...
Kojima games owned: http://junkerhq.net/kojima.html
PSN: Artemio
Wii Friend Code: 6335316353781527
Xbox Live: JunkerHQ
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Post by Artemio »

Painaxl wrote: Oh yeah, and remember, in MGS2, Fortune (until the end) never had any real powers.
And I still believe that was the Patri0ts toying with them... and with Ocelot... (turning on that little device at the final moment).. At least I like to think of it that way... But don't get started with that, Rolman doesn't like that point :P
From the mathematical perspective, consciousness might be regarded as a second derivative of sensation.
-- Terrel Miedaner

[Junker HQ]
User avatar
Jonathan Ingram
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:34 pm
Location: Old L.A.
Contact:

Post by Jonathan Ingram »

One other thing I was just reminded of - you'll notice that the bosses all explode, which is pretty strange I thought (stranger than their abilities, to me), so I thought "Kojima wouldn't have them explode for no reason". On my second play through I noticed that when The Pain dies, he touches something on his left arm, I can only guess that as some kind of final 'attack' the Cobras detonate themselves. Just thought I'd mention it...
"But nothing is permanent... only change"
User avatar
Crowley
Runner
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:06 am
Location: Suomi, ulkomaanpellet!

Post by Crowley »

So how do you explain Volgin's ability? Personally I wouldn't have a problem with having a bunch of 'mundane' soldiers. What makes characters memorable is in the end their personality. And I believe that creating good battles can be done without going all that outlandish. Worked great for MG2:SS and Ghost Babel (only ones I have a problem with are Running Man(for his plain uselessness), Whisper and Marionette Owl). Revolver Ocelot hasn't appeared in all three Solids because he has cool powers that make up for interesting and complex battles. Personally from the footage I've seen, Volgin would look even cooler beating up Snake without all the crackling electricity.

As a side note, I started thinking how interesting it would be to have a boss battle similar to Whisper with modern technology without claiming invisibility. *reminisces about assassins in Half-Life*
User avatar
Johnny Undaunted
Major
Posts: 547
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:34 pm

Post by Johnny Undaunted »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:One other thing I was just reminded of - you'll notice that the bosses all explode, which is pretty strange I thought (stranger than their abilities, to me), so I thought "Kojima wouldn't have them explode for no reason". On my second play through I noticed that when The Pain dies, he touches something on his left arm, I can only guess that as some kind of final 'attack' the Cobras detonate themselves. Just thought I'd mention it...
Actually, there's an explanation if you call Sigint after destroying The Fury about why the Cobras explode after they die (they were all implanted with microbombs to destroy any evidence of their presence in hostile territory if they were ever killed in combat).

Anyway, say what you will about the supernatural aspects of Cobras, but there were some of the greatest boss battles in the whole Metal Gear series, easily beating the FOXHOUND rogues from the first MGS. and those lame-asses from Dead Cell. The battle with The End is already set to become a classic by itself.

One thing that bothered me about MGS2 were not just the lack of boss battles, but the fact that ones it had were quite lame. Olga was alright being the first boss and all, but Kojima made the mistake of rejecting two of Dead Cell's most interesting members (Chinaman and Old Boy, the lattter being the basis for The End and The Boss in one) in favor of a bisexual goth and a fatass in rollerblades who seems more like a rejected Captain Planet-villain. Fortune was alright, but they didn't include a proper boss battle with her.

On the other hand, the only weak boss battle in MGS3 was with The Fear, but only because I found him to be too easy myself. Even that, he's still a 1000 times better than Fatman ever was.
User avatar
Jonathan Ingram
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:34 pm
Location: Old L.A.
Contact:

Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Agreed Johnny. There's no explanation needed for Volgin's ability, he has a special suit. I think that my girlfriend said it the best way - "why does everyone harp on about the 'unrealisticness' of the bosses when Solid Snake himself is a clone made in 1972? That is fucking ridiculous, they can't even clone animals totally sucessfully today". The woman has spoken.

Also, the one battle you have with Ocelot in MGS is probably the worst in MGS, it's so easy, you don't fight him in MGS2, and in MGS3, his battle is ok, but in the end it's just a shootout really, nothing on the level of The End. So if all the bosses were 'normal' they'd all just be plain shootouts, or CQC fights, and that's not a game I'd like to play.

The Fear is indeed too easy, but if you don't manage to catch him in a 'loop' where you keep shooting him, the battle is quite reminiscent of Predator, jumping from tree to tree, looking about with the thermal goggles. It's good, but just too easy. I hope that when the UK version arrives, there's a Boss Vs. section like in MGS2.
"But nothing is permanent... only change"
Rolman
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:07 pm

Post by Rolman »

Agreed Johnny. There's no explanation needed for Volgin's ability, he has a special suit. I think that my girlfriend said it the best way - "why does everyone harp on about the 'unrealisticness' of the bosses when Solid Snake himself is a clone made in 1972? That is fucking ridiculous, they can't even clone animals totally sucessfully today". The woman has spoken.
Actually, Liquid provides quite a lengthy explanation for that. Solid and Liquid are not clones in the modern sense, he refers to that as "Analog Cloning" which is not too different from "breeding". To create the Snakes the "Les Enfants Terribles" project used artificial insemination and the so-called "Super Baby Method" to grow octuplets on the mother's womb, then killed 6 to stimulate baby growth on the remaining two, who are differentiated by their fenotypes. Remember Big Boss was alive at the time and they didn't really need to clone him, they just created children that would have most of his attributes, and less from the mother.This could be very realistic if we compare it to the practice we've been doing for thousands of years on plants and animals.

21st century's "Digital Cloning" on the other side, is to be able to manipulate genes after the human genome has been fully mapped and that's why Liquid and the Foxhound rogues need the remains of Big Boss, to extract his already mapped "soldier genes" and either make clones of him or enhance their special forces' abilities through gene therapy. This is also not too far from reality, remember all the talk about gene-therapy-strengthened athletes during the last Olympics in Athens.

The baby Snakes could never be real clones, that's why there are two (three if you count Solidus) of them, since they are not identical to Big Boss, and there was a mother, whose genes are less dominant.

OK, this is straying too off-topic, but I just wanted to reinforce the idea that in MGS1 Kojima's efforts were very focused on correctness, so the technology to create the Snakes was definitely there in 1972. Much less supernatural or Sci-Fi stuff than in the other two games.
Otaku no naka no otaku, Otaking da!!!
Rolman
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:07 pm

Post by Rolman »

While I was writing my previous post and mentioned correctness, I remembered a very important point that sheds some new light on this discussion.

It's a well known fact that during the Cold War the superpowers on each side of the Iron Curtain (US and USSR primarily) spent a lot of time and money on projects involving paranormal phenomena, including supernatural abilities like ESP or superhuman skills. There are several documentaries on that, I saw one a couple months ago (almost sure it was on the Discovery Channel), and last night I saw a Behind the Scenes on TNT from a movie called Hearts in Atlantis, starring Anthony Hopkins, that deals with just that subject (I saw it a while ago and recommend it to watch, it's from the director of Shine).

It's never mentioned on MGS3, but the paranormal stuff was also part of the already stupid arms/rockets/economic/tech race. We don't know if there were successful programs out of those (and probably never will), but they sure justify the existence of the Cobras, Vulcan Raven, Psycho Mantis, Vamp (and potentially, *gasp* dare I say it, even Fortune's "she's Lady Luck" incident).

We may not believe in the supernatural, but we can't deny how desperate those countries were to keep their ridiculous policy of deterrence, like making enough nukes to destroy the Earth several thousand times (while you can only destroy it ONCE, how idiotic is that?), or having "mediums" trying to create mind-control devices, or special forces breeding grenade-launching hornets for that matter. So there, Crowley, play this masterpiece and get blown away already =)
Otaku no naka no otaku, Otaking da!!!
User avatar
shoryuken_justice
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:25 pm
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Post by shoryuken_justice »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:Agreed Johnny. There's no explanation needed for Volgin's ability, he has a special suit. I think that my girlfriend said it the best way - "why does everyone harp on about the 'unrealisticness' of the bosses when Solid Snake himself is a clone made in 1972? That is fucking ridiculous, they can't even clone animals totally sucessfully today". The woman has spoken.
Rolman wrote:Actually, Liquid provides quite a lengthy explanation for that. Solid and Liquid are not clones in the modern sense, he refers to that as "Analog Cloning" which is not too different from "breeding". To create the Snakes the "Les Enfants Terribles" project used artificial insemination and the so-called "Super Baby Method" to grow octuplets on the mother's womb, then killed 6 to stimulate baby growth on the remaining two, who are differentiated by their fenotypes. Remember Big Boss was alive at the time and they didn't really need to clone him, they just created children that would have most of his attributes, and less from the mother.This could be very realistic if we compare it to the practice we've been doing for thousands of years on plants and animals.

21st century's "Digital Cloning" on the other side, is to be able to manipulate genes after the human genome has been fully mapped and that's why Liquid and the Foxhound rogues need the remains of Big Boss, to extract his already mapped "soldier genes" and either make clones of him or enhance their special forces' abilities through gene therapy. This is also not too far from reality, remember all the talk about gene-therapy-strengthened athletes during the last Olympics in Athens.
Good call, Rolman. And besides, the whole logic of "That is fucking ridiculous" is just plain fucking ridiculous. No offense to your Gf, any girl who plays Metal Gear is cool in my book, but it's hard to say that anything is impossible in the world of videogames. I think that's the point of games; to suspend reality. As someone here said, Snake takes an abnormal amount of punishment, and the idea of a driving or bipedal tank is flawed in some way. If it wasn't, then it would be used in Iraq right now.

Okay, maybe not, but still.

Theres all sorts of bullshit in these games. My brother in law has Gulf War syndrome, but he's not sneaking around the house and snapping my neck, because he wasnt secretly injected with the soldiers genes.
Alright stop.

Hammer Time!
User avatar
Jonathan Ingram
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:34 pm
Location: Old L.A.
Contact:

Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Although I accept she is wrong, she was saying "that's fucking ridiculous" to the fact that people buy into having Nikitas, and 'clones', but moan about Vulcan Raven and things like that, she wasn't saying the 'clones' are ridiculous. I totally forgot about the super baby method you mentioned, indeed that was a good call, but it is all backed up by as you say, suspending reality (which is what I also said). I wasn't for a second calling into question MGS's accuracy, because I love it for that reason, but I do get annoyed by those who can't suspend disbelief at all.
"But nothing is permanent... only change"
User avatar
shoryuken_justice
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:25 pm
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Post by shoryuken_justice »

Ah. I see.

Well, whoever complains about unrealism in videogames is stoopid. Unless they're bigger than me and know where I live. If that's the case, then forget everthing I just said, and please don't hurt me.
Alright stop.

Hammer Time!
Post Reply