MGS3 Ending Analysis and Discussion [Definitely SPOILERS]

Discussion related to the most well-known series by Kojima. News, debate and any related discussions are welcome. IMPORTANT Any topics related to MGS4 should temporarily go in the appropriate forum. Please keep spoilers out of signatures too.
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Snake Plissken
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Post by Snake Plissken »

hahaahah I love you guys, especially you Johhny, you know how to make a person feel like crap with your ever so fun chastising remarks. Don't quit your day job, prick. :wink:

p.s. joking. :P Seriously though, stop being such a morman, welcome to 1997 :wink:
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Post by ReasonWhyNot »

Johnny Undaunted wrote:Oh, just quit whining and be a man. I'm just speaking what came to my mind. Not once did I accusse you of being racist, so there's no need to be a crybaby. I'm just saying why I think the whole Sigint/DARPA theory is invalid (and yes I'm aware you're not the first person to brough it, noticed that I've never said that you did).
I apologize. Sometimes I just get things twisted in my head. It's nothing personal. But even if I'm being an asshole, there's really no need to be rude right back at me. Be the better man and act civilized when I don't.
Last edited by ReasonWhyNot on Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jonathan Ingram
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

I must say I didn't think anyone was accussing anyone of racism. If we can't say "black guys" then in my opinion, that's actually worse than racism, in that we are just assuming everyone is the same, when we really aren't. "Different" doesn't have to mean "better" or "worse". I'd hate it if I had to describe someone and I couldn't say "he was black". I think that Johnny was just condeming the ideas everyone seems to want to propagate about everyone in MGS being related. That's my two-penny's worth.
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ReasonWhyNot
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Post by ReasonWhyNot »

The racial thing was nothing. That's no significant proof that the two are at all related (or the same person). But the ARPAnet and DARPA thing is really what ties the two characters together for me. Maybe I'm the only one who accepts the possibility, but you all know it wouldn't be a stretch for Kojima.
Last edited by ReasonWhyNot on Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Nitroid »

Cross-posted from TUS

According to the final conversation in Snake Eater, Ocelot (ADAM) is taking orders from the director of the CIA.

In 1964, the Director of the CIA was a man named John A. McCone.

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Confirming that the real-life Director and MGS' CIA Director are the same person, you can see him in the White House during the ending sequence. He is the man that Snake refuses to shake hands with.

Hopping back to the leaked MGS3 cast sheet, he is described as such:

"Male, 60s, standard English. He pulls the political strings on the American side. He is planning an exile plot using The Boss. Due to changing circumstances, he orders Snake to assassinate her, in order to get back the Assembly's inheritance. For that he uses "FOX". He is a master manipulator, using Ocelot (Adam) for his reconnaissance duties."

McCone also (obviously) has quite a long track record in military and big business affairs, but my question is this; Why did Kojima choose to pin the entire thing on this particular man? Any thoughts?
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Post by TheBoss »

Okay, it's obvious that whom Ocelot was talking to was the DCI; but who was Ocelot talking to in the first conversation? He says "Chief Director", but that is NOT the title for the head of the CIA. Any idea?
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Post by Painaxl »

TheBoss wrote:Okay, it's obvious that whom Ocelot was talking to was the DCI; but who was Ocelot talking to in the first conversation? He says "Chief Director", but that is NOT the title for the head of the CIA. Any idea?
I'm pretty sure that's the head of the KGB.
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Post by Nitroid »

Painaxl wrote:
TheBoss wrote:Okay, it's obvious that whom Ocelot was talking to was the DCI; but who was Ocelot talking to in the first conversation? He says "Chief Director", but that is NOT the title for the head of the CIA. Any idea?
I'm pretty sure that's the head of the KGB.
Yes, it was Vladimir Semichastny, head of the KGB from 1961 to 1967 (who also, from 1992 to 1998 did work in informational films regarding the Cold War).
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Post by ReasonWhyNot »

Johnny Undaunted wrote:It's obvious that Raikov's presence in the game was just for comic relief and not meant to be taken seriously as one of Raiden's potential ancestor, since you can kill Raikov and not get a time paradox (provided that you don't get caught of course).
Since Raikov is homosexual, I doubt he would have been Raiden's father regardless of any time paradoxes that could have been.
Last edited by ReasonWhyNot on Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ReasonWhyNot »

Nitroid wrote:According to the final conversation in Snake Eater, Ocelot (ADAM) is taking orders from the director of the CIA.
Yeah, he's also the man who approved Snake's missions in the first place.
Confirming that the real-life Director and MGS' CIA Director are the same person, you can see him in the White House during the ending sequence. He is the man that Snake refuses to shake hands with.
Was that supposed to be Johnson who he shook hands with at the end? I was wondering why his voice changed. He sounded like he had a very bad cold (then again, maybe he was supposed to).
Last edited by ReasonWhyNot on Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TheBoss »

ReasonWhyNot wrote:
Nitroid wrote:According to the final conversation in Snake Eater, Ocelot (ADAM) is taking orders from the director of the CIA.
Yeah, he's also the man who approved Snake's missions in the first place.
Confirming that the real-life Director and MGS' CIA Director are the same person, you can see him in the White House during the ending sequence. He is the man that Snake refuses to shake hands with.
Yeah, was that supposed to be Johnson who he shook hands with at the end?? If it was, why the hell did his voice change from the start to the end of the game?? Every time I hear that guy speak at the end, I just crack up laughing (especially when he say "Big Boss").
Yes, that was meant to be LBJ.
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Post by FDIS »

Yeah, i thought that was strange too. in the Snake Eater mission briefing i thought the VA sounded much like LBJ, but then at the end he sounds very different. Almost as if there were two VAs for LBJ.
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Post by BRAMA22BULL »

A lot of people talking about the ending to MGS3 are saying that Eva stole the fake Legacy (which the Boss gave to Snake) after Eva seduced Snake, and that Ocelot gave the real Legacy to the U.S. Philosophers.
I'm not sure if I am the only one who caught this but during the second segment of the ending, there is a point where Snake pulls a microfilm out of his pocket, while he's listening to Eva's recording, he looks at the microfilm for a while, then tosses it on the table. Doesn't this mean that both the real and fake Legacy end up in Snake's room at the end, and that Snake, not Ocelot gave the real Legacy to the U.S. I think it would make sense if The Boss knowing the Eva was planning to steal the Legacy replaced it with a fake one while it was still inside the underground vault of Grozny Grad, then after The Boss helps Eva escape The Boss must have given Eva back the fake Legacy. Then the Boss gave Snake the real Legacy after he defeats her. I may be way off here, but at any rate, what is that microfilm that Snake is looking at during the ending? It has to be either the real or the fake microfilm of the Legacy, and we know Eva took the fake one.

Props to whoever found out abot hitting R1 during the ending to see Ocelot outside the president's window, I never woulnd've figured that out.
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Post by Rolman »

Yes, Snake gets the real Legacy, while EVA gets the fake one. Remember The Boss was the only one who knew EVA was a fake spy from the very beginning (apart from Ocelot, but EVA doesn't know his relationship with The Boss). Ocelot does know who's got the real microfilm and that's the reason why he needs to inform his contact about it over the phone. The only thing that doesn't really add up here is that EVA actually thought she had got the real Legacy from The Boss. She shouldn't have bought that from someone who knew her real identity.

By the way, Snatcher and I discussed the other day about Ocelot's cameo in the ending. We agreed that we'd like to think Snake/Big Boss was daydreaming and saw him in that special moment, kind of like realizing who he is and his role in the whole affair. Also that could be the reason why Snake didn't kill him or fight him to death in the airplane, maybe he already came to the conclusion Ocelot's the son of The Boss by then.

Otherwise, I'd think it's a very stupid thing to have the REAL Ocelot sneaking outside of the White House in plain daylight, dressed in a russian GRU outfit in the midst of the Cold War, carelessly performing his trademark gestures to boot. Oh yes, and the only one who could see him from a room full of people was the half-blind guy =)
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Post by Rossaroni »

That's the conclusion I came too as well, Rolman. I'm thinking that EVA didn't get her copy directly from The Boss, rather that she stole it thinking she was sneakier than she actually was. I also think that Ocelot knew she was the Chinese spy, most likely through the <B>Patriots</B>, who learned it from The Boss.

As to Ocelot at the end...it seemed rather odd to me that he was just standing outside this window against a white background. I don't think it was meant to be taken as the real Ocelot standing outside the window. My guess is that Ocelot was still back in Russia, playing his GRU major role, and that the Ocelot we see was meant more as a means of explaining something relevant to (now) Big Boss's development.

Anyone have any idea what Ocelot's little gesture means? I have an idea, but not enough of one to write out. Still too intangible to cross over to the tangible.

One last thing...I don't think that this lessens MGS2's importance. All it has done is put MGS2 in a different perspective. We predict the future by projecting the past forward, and now we have an accurate past to project foward past MGS2. On a side note, the last part of that sentence has made me realize how absurd the English language can be.

[Edit]: In the final scene, where Big Boss is saluting The Boss's grave, you can hit R1 and look around. Now, that sounds like just the place to sneak something in under our noses. Have any of you spotted anything in that scene before? It doesn't last long, and your vision is a bit blurred and your head is moving...
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Post by Johnny Undaunted »

I'm not sure if anyone else noticed this, but I like how the revelation of The Boss being a good guy all along and had her death planned a reversal of the whole Policenauts concept (it's nice for once that Kojima gave a twist to the whole "your-former-commander-is-now-your-enemy" cliche he's been using since the original Metal Gear).

SPOILER for Policenauts
Spoiler:
As you may know, Policenauts tells the story of five of the world's finest police officers , as they rose above their peers and became public heroes. However, in reality half of them (Gatse, Sadaoki and Salvatore) were corrupt (with Jonathan and Ed being the only clean ones) , having dealings with the mafia and ordering the deaths of several people. It's only until the end of the game when Jonathan and Meryl reveals to the world of Gatse and Tokugawa's true colors.
Likewise, it's the opposite in MGS3, where The Boss remained loyal to her cause without Snake knowing until the end when he found out from Eva, when it was too late.
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Post by randomwab »

Something of no real relivence, just something me and my friend came up with, but we think despite it is never told, that MGS3 is based around information found in the disc retrieved from MGS2, we think it may be the untold story of Big Boss, and something the GW was trying to filter out. Though with no real proof, no proof at all infact, just a thought. Plus, has it not seemed unusual to anyone that Big Boss is infact a Nuclear Test Subject, and The Boss being a super women, i found it kinda funny
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Post by randomwab »

Just thinking there, at the end, Snake tells ocelot his name is John, now, why do this, was it to try and keep his identity hidden. Its weird cause if Ocelot is working with the CIA, then at the end would he not have said thanks to Jack, not John, and also, would Ocelot have known that Boss was his mother? He was working for the CIA and the Philosophers
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Maybe John is his real name. Jack is only ever mentioned as a "nickname" (and that is a quote, from either the manual or the game, can't remember, but it is).
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Post by randomwab »

Not the manual, dosent say anything about his real name, im probably just thinking this because the Boss refares to him as Jack and if you pick "I like MGS2" he is introduced as Jack and not Snake, but meah!
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Oh yeah, I'm not doubting that he is called Jack, but it is definitely mentioned somewhere that it is his nickname. I reckon it may have been on the Japanese MGS3 site. Believe me though.
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Post by randomwab »

Alrighty then, funny thing, i dont know if any of you read this but the spoiler section in the snake soup is weird. He predicted basically the entire story spot on, though i dont know what was in the leak, hell, i didnt know there was a leak, so i dont know how much was his idea's and how much was in the leak, but anyway, i suggest you all go and have a look, its funny knowing how close he was to the real story, plus the entire site is genius, i laughed so hard at the "Twin Snakes is NGC Exclusive" article
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Post by Painaxl »

Yeah, the Snake Soup is a pretty sweet site overall.

I like the idea that the story we played is on the disc that Snake gets at the end of MGS2. I see it giving him renewed purpose to find his own ends against the <B>Patriots</B>.
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Post by randomwab »

:grin:
Who cares if there is no evidence to support it, MG is all about how we define the messages placed within it, is it not. So for us all to have different ideas is ok, but i think that if it were on the GW disc it would be oretty cool
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Post by Johnny Undaunted »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:Oh yeah, I'm not doubting that he is called Jack, but it is definitely mentioned somewhere that it is his nickname. I reckon it may have been on the Japanese MGS3 site. Believe me though.
http://www.konamijpn.com/products/mgs3/ ... snake.html
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