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abhi
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by abhi »

^^ I really hope it doesn't for real

also with the title changed, what does that mean now ? as I aint very PC minded
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by slowbeef »

Stratoslava wrote:It just cannot take another year, can it?
No. No way, no day.

Here's where we stand on our four... make that three major beta features and our one serious bug.

Summaries - Installed. They still have to be QA'ed and the script finalized, but I think they only require tweaking maybe - no major development remains. (Thanks Scarboy!)
Cinema Overlays - Artemio is at proof-of-concept. He's done one to prove it and as is working to make it easily patchable. This is now in-development.
Telops/Graphical Changes - I've now lumped these together because it's basically the same problem. Scarboy and I are hitting this one and I think we've got a handle on how to do it. We're going to bypass Konami's ridiculous compression scheme entirely in order to solve this.

Finally, the end credits: We have 3 different games with working copies of the executable, so it's a matter of attempting to transplant them.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by Stratoslava »

slowbeef wrote:
Stratoslava wrote:It just cannot take another year, can it?
No. No way, no day.

Here's where we stand on our four... make that three major beta features and our one serious bug.

Summaries - Installed. They still have to be QA'ed and the script finalized, but I think they only require tweaking maybe - no major development remains. (Thanks Scarboy!)
Cinema Overlays - Artemio is at proof-of-concept. He's done one to prove it and as is working to make it easily patchable. This is now in-development.
Telops/Graphical Changes - I've now lumped these together because it's basically the same problem. Scarboy and I are hitting this one and I think we've got a handle on how to do it. We're going to bypass Konami's ridiculous compression scheme entirely in order to solve this.

Finally, the end credits: We have 3 different games with working copies of the executable, so it's a matter of attempting to transplant them.
The last 2 seem tough enough to keep us dreaming about Policenauts for a while :P
Well, it's nice to get a somewhat official statement that it won't take THAT long now hahaha.
Keep it up, guys!
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by slowbeef »

If Scarboy and I were trying to re-implement the codec, it really would take a very long time. If you look at romhacking.net, everyone complains about Konami compression - it's one of the biggest challenges in ROM hacking their games. Compression algorithms are secondly only to encryption - it's "heavy math" and it's very hard to infer the algorithm given only the small component steps of machine code.

(For example, a compiler might take the instruction "multiply this integer by 2" and translate it into "bit shift left by one" or "add the integer to itself" because both of those are the same thing. In an algorithm, it might be easier to see the whole of it if you know the intention is multiply by two but we really can't know that without studying the whole thing in-depth and frankly, making some guesses.)

Bypassing compression is a... sorta standard solution to it. I say "sorta" because it's not quite "correct" - but then again, nothing in a ROM hack is "quite correct" since you just don't have all the tools you really need to translate hack the game. (i.e. the effin' source code for example)

My text hack tells the game, "hey readdress and skip control codes" in order to get around the fact we couldn't decode the scripting language for text pointers - we bypass the game's original addressing routine to use our own.

Here it's a bit trickier since now we want the game to mostly draw the graphics normally, but in special cases, make it do something else.

But it's sound, and that's all we need.

Incidentally, it also enables us to fix a graphical glitch in the original game.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by slowbeef »

Okay, I'm back to turning it to the general public. We're at graphics.

Policenauts uses a modified version of MS Gothic Font - specifically, the big change is that the English is variable-width, unlike MS Gothic that comes with Windows. News Gothic is fairly close too. At any rate, here's the challenge.

Meet Lorraine Hojo, voiced by Chiyoko Kawashima:

Image

Her telop will read, in English:

Lorraine Hojo
(Chiyoko Kawashima)

Here is the 88x28 graphic background of the telop. We must draw the telop on top of this.

Image

Is there any nice way to fit Lorraine Hojo, in a Gothic font, on 88x28 pixels and still have it look any good?

I am a little worried that 88 pixels is not enough to contain "(Chiyoko Kawashima)" with parentheses. I played around a bit in GIMP, but I kinda suck at this.

This is my current attempt.

Image
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by Stratoslava »

slowbeef wrote:This is my current attempt.

Image

Seems good enough,
bleh... I don't know how would that look when in fullscreen. It's not a bit antialiased, is it?
No comments about the "awwright I'll confess"-lamp-like white color, since I assume you can change that easily :lol:


Good work, man!
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by Jack Stern »

Should look something like this on the default TV screen.

Image
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by snatcher1996 »

I think that's not too bad... Maybe it should be a little darker for that scene as Lorraine is standing in the dark hallway. By the way, any decision concerning the name badges?
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by slowbeef »

How would you guys feel if we disabled them entirely? They are sorta redundant, given the dialogue usually tells you exactly who the character and locations are anyway.

Like seriously:

Jonathan: Lorraine?
[Lorraine Hojo]

Or:

Jonathan: I've arrived at Beyond Coast Police Department
[Beyond Coast Police Department]
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by Keranu »

The current font graphic you have looks great. I agree maybe some slight dimming would make it look nicer and more "traditional", if that even matters for something as small as this. The only concern I would have is if it's readable on most TVs, but again, not important. If you can incorporate them into the game, it would be a nice touch, but if it puts too much on your backs, skipping it entirely would be completely understandable. Better to get the more important stuff out of the way first.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by epitaph »

I'm inclined to agree with the "they're redundant"-crowd, seeing as the dialogue for the particular scenes where they're displayed will usually reflect what the telops say anyway. Doing away with them is fine with me.

Edit: I also remember the Mother 3 guys doing something similar regarding one text graphic (which was somewhat in style of Policenauts' telops), seeing as they couldn't be bothered to change it and the regular text which would be displayed after would say the same thing as the graphic anyway.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by EscapePlan »

Holy shit, I've wanted to play this game since I was 13 or so. I just spent the latter half of this day reading the whole thread and the one on somethingawful. I'm so psyched for this game!

On topic: Yeah I'd say take out the voice actor credits. It's much cleaner and redundant if left in.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by snatcher1996 »

slowbeef wrote:How would you guys feel if we disabled them entirely? They are sorta redundant, given the dialogue usually tells you exactly who the character and locations are anyway.

Like seriously:

Jonathan: Lorraine?
[Lorraine Hojo]

Or:

Jonathan: I've arrived at Beyond Coast Police Department
[Beyond Coast Police Department]
Why don't you just leave them japanese, as they were before? Since the spoken text won't be altered, the game surely has a japanese feel to it, so they won't look out of the place. Also, I like the look of them.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by epitaph »

snatcher1996 wrote:Why don't you just leave them japanese, as they were before? Since the spoken text won't be altered, the game surely has a japanese feel to it, so they won't look out of the place. Also, I like the look of them.
As far as I understand, the idea is to try to get as close to what an official localization would have been like (hence the other graphical edits) and in an official localization you wouldn't have left untranslated text in the game; doing so would also be very sloppy IMO and reek of laziness.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by snatcher1996 »

epitaph wrote:
snatcher1996 wrote:Why don't you just leave them japanese, as they were before? Since the spoken text won't be altered, the game surely has a japanese feel to it, so they won't look out of the place. Also, I like the look of them.
As far as I understand, the idea is to try to get as close to what an official localization would have been like (hence the other graphical edits) and in an official localization you wouldn't have left untranslated text in the game; doing so would also be very sloppy IMO and reek of laziness.
I thought, since the telops mostly accompany japanese spoken text, it would be nice to leave them unaltered. I see the necessity to have Englisch name badges, but the telops do significantly add to the style of the game. Leaving them like they are would also eliminate any redundance.

Also, I'm pretty sure there were elements of japanese writing in the Metal Gear Series, like the evation sign in MGS and some captions in MGS2.

Anyhow, whatever the team decides is ok with me. A big thank you to all of them.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by Spike »

slowbeef wrote:Image
Image
Image
I can't see the images. I guess they're the same than those onSomethingAwful's forums ?
slowbeef wrote:How would you guys feel if we disabled them entirely?
Well, for my part, I'd like to have them there.
They're part of the original game and I'm quite used to these since the Metal Gear Solid series. Moreover, I've read somewhere this practice comes from Japanese kids films.
Besides, I think it's easier to translate them than to start redrawing some scenes because Konami couldn't properly romanize their game's characters' names.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by Stratoslava »

It would be a nice touch, but it's not truly that necessary...
Don't disable them either... a bit of jap doesn't hurt the eye

I mean, if only this stuff took more than a month, it really would be a loss of time
(in the other hand, this project started in '02...)

Whichever is fine, I guess
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by dlfrsilver »

Happy new year everyone, well my guess is that actors credits must be kept, because it's a way to thanks them for their work.

sound logic for me :D
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by Marc »

Our goal is to do the best English translation we can do today. Games are altered during localization all the time. Nothing is "sacred" here. We know we can't please everyone on an issue like this, so we just have to do what we feel is best for the game and the majority of its audience. This isn't an issue of laziness, as scarboy has succeeded in replacing them, but presentation. They offer redundant information and are an unnecessary visual distraction. All actors will still be featured in the opening and end credits.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by Spike »

Marc wrote:Games are altered during localization all the time.

This isn't an issue of laziness, as scarboy has succeeded in replacing them, but presentation. They offer redundant information and are an unnecessary visual distraction.
Well, the telops were also kept in the MGS series, where they don't offer any substantial information.

I don't think it's a matter of usefulness : they're part of the charm of the game.
They make the introduction of a character more iconic / cinematographical (as I've written before, I think that practice comes from Japanese films for children. And Tony Scott did something similar in Man on Fire and Domino). It makes you ponder on who the character is*.

Besides, if Kojima decided to have them in the game, there's probably a good reason.
In this case, I don't think the telops are a mistake to correct, but a legit narrative visual choice made by the creator of the game.

For example, as far as I'm concerned, it wouldn't bother me if you let the Engrish drawn in the scenes (i.e. The BBC newscasts reads Karen Hojyo instead of Hojo. That's a mistake made by Konami. Nobody would criticize you if you let it in the game. Moreover, it must quite difficult to correct.), but it would if you removed the telops or left them untranslated (because you can/could quite easily do it).

I'd just say this : how would you have reacted if the MGS1 localisation team decided to remove the "Solid Snake (David Hayter)" that appears after Snake removed his swim gear in the elevator ? Or the "Liquid Snake (James Flinders)" when Snake meets his twin for the first time in the torture room ? Etc.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll do for the best and I'll be always grateful to you and the whole translation for bringing us this game in English. :)

* Image
What will a normal person do when he'll see this ?
1. Read the name of the character introduced (important).
2. Read the name of the voice actress.
3. Look at said character. In this case, he'll note that Lorraine looks far more wrinkled/older : life wasn't easy on her.
That's a stark contrast with the pictures of past happiness displayed on Jonathan's desk.

It wouldn't have made such an impression on the player if the game didn't force him to concentrate to read the telops and then to watch who that name belongs to.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by Henry Spencer »

I'm with Spike on this one. I personally like the telops introducing characters, it's just something Kojima likes to do in all of his games. It also will help players remember character's names, by having their faces associated with the name the first time you meet them. It's a nice visual aid I've always liked in his games. But of course, if it's got to be left out, I can live with that. You could always have a poll to ask people whether they want certain features implemented into it, or not, if you feel certain parts are not needed.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by Artemio »

I am also in for keeping them, I presented very similar reasons to the ones exposed above. But as Marc said, we'll do whatever is the best for the game and general audience.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by Marc »

Spike wrote:What will a normal person do when he'll see this ?
1. Read the name of the character introduced (important).
2. Read the name of the voice actress.
3. Look at said character. In this case, he'll note that Lorraine looks far more wrinkled/older : life wasn't easy on her.
That's a stark contrast with the pictures of past happiness displayed on Jonathan's desk.

It wouldn't have made such an impression on the player if the game didn't force him to concentrate to read the telops and then to watch who that name belongs to.
I would actually use what you said to argue my point. With the telops there, I waste time looking at them for information I'll already glean in a few moments, instead of focusing on what's going on on-screen. And in the case of Lorraine, her telop spoils part of the story (her last name).

Snatcher didn't have telops, and I think it worked wonderfully there. And I've always associated Policenauts more with Snatcher than MGS.
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by slowbeef »

Spike wrote: I don't think it's a matter of usefulness : they're part of the charm of the game.
This is honestly one of the better arguments for them.

The big problem is that I'm not convinced the telops have any utility whatsoever. They make sense in some instances in Japanese. When you see "I'll Kill You" written in blood, there's a telop to show Japanese players what it says. We'll be removing that, of course.

But no other media - movie, book, or video game - feels the need to print out a character's name and actor in their introduction. None. Not only does Policenauts give you their name in the telop, it does it in their name badge for Every. Sentence. In. The. Game.

I don't feel like keeping them for the sake of "We'll look lazy if we don't". That's a bullshit reason to make an aesthetic decision.

I don't feel like dropping them for the sake of "It doesn't make sense in cost/benefit." That's not a great reason either. (But to be perfectly frank, it is a better reason than the previous one.)

But I brought it up here, because I felt we were at a stage where we could start introducing art assets and we didn't have said art assets. And I took it back once Marc suggested removing them because I didn't want people wasting their time producing art assets we weren't sure we were going to use.

If the telops add charm or something aesthetically pleasing, that's something to consider. But Policenauts is unique in the sense that most of the material is going to be printed. We're not doing the MGS thing of "punctuating" a character introduction with the telop. With their names printed in both text subtitles and name badges, it's really being hammered home. That's something to consider too.

In MGS, there's certainly something to be said for a telop as "Meet Liquid Snake"

In Policenauts, there's also something to be said for, "I'm not stupid. I know what Meryl's name is because Ed just introduced her to Jonathan and it's right there whenever she speaks."

edit: Wait a minute here, I gots an idea...
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Re: Current Project Status (12/19/08): Alpha Testing

Post by slowbeef »

I think we can make telops optional. I just did a proof-of-concept and it's not that hard at all.

So you could turn them on or off. Now we get to argue about which one is default.
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