New Big Boss MGS game announced for PSP!

Discussion related to the most well-known series by Kojima. News, debate and any related discussions are welcome. IMPORTANT Any topics related to MGS4 should temporarily go in the appropriate forum. Please keep spoilers out of signatures too.
User avatar
ratperson665
Captain
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:12 pm
Favorite Game: Suikoden 2
Kojima games owned: Metal Gear Solid
Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons Of liberty
Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence
Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots
Metal Gear Acid
Snatcher(Sega CD)
Policenauts(PSX)
Metal Gear(Subsistence Version)
Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake(Subsistence Version)
Location: Mercer Island, WA, USA

Post by ratperson665 »

I agree with Crowley. The fourth wall breaking is the only flaw in Hideo's games. For example: In Snatcher Gillian realizes that the whole thing’s just a game, and yet even though he knows none of it is real he goes out of his way to save everybody. The fourth wall breaking in Snatcher taints an otherwise excellent plot. The same goes for the Metal Gear games. I think he should stop breaking the fourth wall.
"Don't worry I got an idea. An Idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was taking about."-Peter Griffin
User avatar
87th
General
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:35 pm
Favorite Game: MetalGear 2: Solid Snake
Kojima games owned: METALGEAR SERIES
MetalGear (MSX2) [European]
MetalGear (NES) [European]
MetalGear (Famicom) [Japanese]
MetalGear 2: Solid Snake (MSX2) [Japanese]
Snake's Revenge (NES) [European]
MetalGear Solid (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Premium Pack (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Integral (PlayStation) [Japanese]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Sons Of Liberty (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance + The Document of MGS2 (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (Xbox) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PC) [European]
MetalGear AC!D (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater - Premium Pack (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear AC!D2 (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - Promo copy (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Digital Graphic Novel (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Portable Ops (PSP) [American]
MetalGear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots - Limited Edition (+ Bonus Disc, Soundtrack and 6" Old Snake Action Figure) [European]

SNATCHER SERIES
Snatcher (Mega CD) [European]
Snatcher (Saturn) [Japanese]

POLICENAUTS SERIES
Policenauts Pilot Disk (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (PlayStation) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]

ZONE OF THE ENDERS SERIES
Zone Of the Enders (PlayStation 2) [European]
Zone Of the Enders: The Second Runner - Special Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]

BOKTAI SERIES
boktai: The Sun Is In Your Hand! (Gameboy Advance) [European]
boktai 2: Solar Boy Django (Gameboy Advance) [European]

OTHER SERIES
Penguin Adventure (MSX) [European]
Kabushiki Baibai Trainer Kabutore (DS) [Japanese]

KOJIMA-RELATED GAMES
Konami Krazy Racers (Gameboy Advance) [European]
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) [American]
PSN: eighty7th
Wii Friend Code: 4890580757769739
Location: Zanzibarland
Contact:

Post by 87th »

I feel it's an important part of what makes a Kojima game. Besides, wouldn't it be shit if Gillian found out he's in a game, and then decided to piss about, doing nothing for the rest of the game?
OtakupunkX
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:37 am
Location: N/A
Contact:

Post by OtakupunkX »

The fourth wall breaking is, in my opinion, what makes Kojima's games more challenging intellectually than most game out there.

Then again though, I play videogames not only for fun but because they make me think (a la novels and cinema)...
Image
User avatar
Artemio
Site Admin
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:33 am
Favorite Game: Snatcher! ... no wait, Policenauts...
Kojima games owned: http://junkerhq.net/kojima.html
PSN: Artemio
Wii Friend Code: 6335316353781527
Xbox Live: JunkerHQ
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Post by Artemio »

I agree with the idea that the breaking of the 4th wall is necessary. And also a trademark of Kojima's style. I recall that the ones in Snatcher were particularly clever for the time and my age then. It is part of the charm, since only in this medium it can be done in an interactive way.
From the mathematical perspective, consciousness might be regarded as a second derivative of sensation.
-- Terrel Miedaner

[Junker HQ]
Missing
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:09 am

Post by Missing »

I really don't understand the complaints. I've never lost the feeling of immersion while playing Kojima's games (or any other game for that matter) because of a few fourth-wall elements. I think if Kojima didn't include those things in his games, they'd be a lot less fun to play. It's similar in ways to the references he includes towards his other games. Meryl can exist in both the Policenauts universe and the Metal Gear universe without getting technical about their timeline differences, because she's just a character that doesn't really exist. She can inhabit any space or time Kojima wishes. I think sometimes people get too analytical about these kinds of things, and the fourth-wall stuff is just one example. They are games, whether you like it or not. I don't think any of you would really enjoy playing a game that was entirely realistic. Who wants to die after being shot only once? Who wants to play Grand Theft Auto where you have to sit in a jail cell for twenty years before you can continue playing the game? Who wants to play a game where you worry about diseases or have to eat all your vegetables? Realism blows, frankly. I'll take the fourth-wall stuff any day over that.
User avatar
ratperson665
Captain
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:12 pm
Favorite Game: Suikoden 2
Kojima games owned: Metal Gear Solid
Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons Of liberty
Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence
Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots
Metal Gear Acid
Snatcher(Sega CD)
Policenauts(PSX)
Metal Gear(Subsistence Version)
Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake(Subsistence Version)
Location: Mercer Island, WA, USA

Post by ratperson665 »

Missing wrote:I really don't understand the complaints. I've never lost the feeling of immersion while playing Kojima's games (or any other game for that matter) because of a few fourth-wall elements. I think if Kojima didn't include those things in his games, they'd be a lot less fun to play. It's similar in ways to the references he includes towards his other games. Meryl can exist in both the Policenauts universe and the Metal Gear universe without getting technical about their timeline differences, because she's just a character that doesn't really exist. She can inhabit any space or time Kojima wishes. I think sometimes people get too analytical about these kinds of things, and the fourth-wall stuff is just one example. They are games, whether you like it or not. I don't think any of you would really enjoy playing a game that was entirely realistic. Who wants to die after being shot only once? Who wants to play Grand Theft Auto where you have to sit in a jail cell for twenty years before you can continue playing the game? Who wants to play a game where you worry about diseases or have to eat all your vegetables? Realism blows, frankly. I'll take the fourth-wall stuff any day over that.
That's why I HATE the fourth wall breaking! Because Kojima games often feel very real, and that sense of realty is broken when you call your girlfriend on the codec and she says "Do you want to save your game Jack?" I mean come on! Have you ever read Sin City: The hard goodbye? Well how would you like it if Marv ever said anything like "This is just a comic-book.
I'm not really killing anybody." It would ruin the whole story wouldn't it? That's what I think. Your certainly welcome to your own opinion though.
"Don't worry I got an idea. An Idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was taking about."-Peter Griffin
User avatar
Artemio
Site Admin
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:33 am
Favorite Game: Snatcher! ... no wait, Policenauts...
Kojima games owned: http://junkerhq.net/kojima.html
PSN: Artemio
Wii Friend Code: 6335316353781527
Xbox Live: JunkerHQ
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Post by Artemio »

But you will need to break it to save anyway, wouldn't you? Better have it in a way that it is well produced and fits in the game.
From the mathematical perspective, consciousness might be regarded as a second derivative of sensation.
-- Terrel Miedaner

[Junker HQ]
User avatar
ratperson665
Captain
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:12 pm
Favorite Game: Suikoden 2
Kojima games owned: Metal Gear Solid
Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons Of liberty
Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence
Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots
Metal Gear Acid
Snatcher(Sega CD)
Policenauts(PSX)
Metal Gear(Subsistence Version)
Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake(Subsistence Version)
Location: Mercer Island, WA, USA

Post by ratperson665 »

Your not getting my point! If you put fourth-wall breaking in a graphic novel or a movie it would ruin the whole thing. But you just sit back and accept it in video games. Why is that?
"Don't worry I got an idea. An Idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was taking about."-Peter Griffin
User avatar
James_The_Stampede
Runner
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:09 am
Kojima games owned: MGS1-4, Boktai, Policenauts, Snatcher (Well, technically anyway).
PSN: Sir_EFG
Xbox Live: Aes Rock
Location: Seattle, WA.
Contact:

Post by James_The_Stampede »

ratperson665 wrote:Your not getting my point! If you put fourth-wall breaking in a graphic novel or a movie it would ruin the whole thing. But you just sit back and accept it in video games. Why is that?

Except for one slight difference: Video games are interactive entertainment. If movies and graphic novels reacted to my inputs, then I could see forth-wall breaking elements adding something to the entertainment value (if done correctly like in Kojima games). In video games, YOU ARE SNAKE. In a graphic novel like Sin City, you are NOT Marv.
Marc
General
Posts: 3379
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:46 am

Post by Marc »

James stole what I was going to say. :P Yes, it's because they're interactive. You can't do these things (let alone do them well) in other mediums for that reason.

There are tons of other games out there that don't attempt this type of thing. That's one reason why Kojima's games stand out. They can be serious yet also poke fun of themselves at the same time.

Consider this exchange in Policenauts, after you've died once during the bomb defusal:

Ed: All right, let's try it again, Jonathan. Just be careful this time, okay?

Jonathan: We'll be fine this time.

Ed: You sure about that?

Jonathan: Don't worry.

Ed: Don't worry?

Jonathan: Yeah, don't worry. You don't feel as much pressure after you've died once.

Ed: ...Yeah, I guess you're right.

Other games would just have you repeat the same procedure after you die, but Policenauts, for example, goes a little bit further. And if you don't want to run into this fourth wall breaking here, then you just have to be sure to defuse it your first time. :)
User avatar
Artemio
Site Admin
Posts: 2947
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:33 am
Favorite Game: Snatcher! ... no wait, Policenauts...
Kojima games owned: http://junkerhq.net/kojima.html
PSN: Artemio
Wii Friend Code: 6335316353781527
Xbox Live: JunkerHQ
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Post by Artemio »

And to add to the points above, and since theone that doesn't seem to get th epoint of what we are saying is you, it is because in videogames you HAVE to break the pace. The game HAS to load, the game HAS to save. You might as well do it with style. As a matter of fact I've seen that most of the péople that complain about this fourth wall breaking in Kojima games started by playing the Solid series, and most that enjoy them, started by playing Snatcher or Policenauts.
From the mathematical perspective, consciousness might be regarded as a second derivative of sensation.
-- Terrel Miedaner

[Junker HQ]
User avatar
Skycladiana
Runner
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:22 pm

Post by Skycladiana »

I've never had the chance to play either Snatchers or Policenauts, but I consider Kojima's 4th wall barrier-busting to be one of his most engaging traits as an artist. The whole "Naked Raiden" section of SOL is my favorite, along with "Fission Mailed."
Big Boss: Snake's my brother. (Slap) My son. (Slap) My brother. (Slap) My son. (Slap) My brother. (Slap) My son. (Slap) He's my brother and my son!
Missing
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:09 am

Post by Missing »

ratperson665 wrote:If you put fourth-wall breaking in a graphic novel or a movie it would ruin the whole thing.
I disagree. I've seen it done in films many times before. Haven't you ever seen a character in a film talk to the audience, as if they're contained in their own reality away from the world around them? That's an example of breaking the fourth-wall. I can't think of any examples for novels, but I have no doubts that they have their own elements as well. It all depends on how these elements are handled that makes the difference, and there are likely many forms of fourth-wall breaking that you do accept without complaint (maybe without even realizing it). But I can understand that you dislike the way Kojima breaks the fourth-wall in his games. I can't say your complaints are entirely warranted, but I'll accept your disliking it regardless. However, just remember that all games break the fourth-wall to a certain extent. Any sort of interface that you see on the screen (Life bars, ammunition, etc.) all break the fourth-wall. They have to in order to communicate with the player. I look at Kojima as taking his fourth-wall breaking another step further than most games.
User avatar
ratperson665
Captain
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:12 pm
Favorite Game: Suikoden 2
Kojima games owned: Metal Gear Solid
Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons Of liberty
Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence
Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots
Metal Gear Acid
Snatcher(Sega CD)
Policenauts(PSX)
Metal Gear(Subsistence Version)
Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake(Subsistence Version)
Location: Mercer Island, WA, USA

Post by ratperson665 »

I think breaking the fourth wall in some games is good. I'm talking about games like Night Trap. In a game where the whole storyline is based around you being in a control-room, then it works. But those kinds of games ALWAYS suck. So fourth wall breaking isn't a great idea.
"Don't worry I got an idea. An Idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was taking about."-Peter Griffin
User avatar
Jonathan Ingram
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:34 pm
Location: Old L.A.
Contact:

Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Night Trap was so bad it got banned.

Breaking the fourth wall in games and movies is necessary to maintain the sanity of the audience, and as Artemio points out, to do things that are crucial with style.

I think that no matter how realistic or immersive you find Kojima's games, one must realise that they are games, and he does everything he can to keep you aware of this throughout. It is that balancing act that is part of his skill; not many other creatives can maintain a sense of immersion whilst simultaneously alerting the audience to the artificiality of the medium. Kojima says himself in an interview something along the lines of "you need that humour, that realisation that it is only game, to keep you going!"

I'll dig out the exact quote...
"But nothing is permanent... only change"
Missing
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:09 am

Post by Missing »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:Breaking the fourth wall in games and movies is necessary to maintain the sanity of the audience....
I think I know what you're saying, but do you mind further clarifying that just for my sake? I'm not exactly sure I understand what you mean by maintaining sanity.
Last edited by Missing on Sun May 21, 2006 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
OtakupunkX
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:37 am
Location: N/A
Contact:

Post by OtakupunkX »

Missing wrote:
Jonathan Ingram wrote:Night Trap was so bad it got banned.

Breaking the fourth wall in games and movies is necessary to maintain the sanity of the audience....
I think I know what you're saying, but do you mind further clarifying that just for my sake? I'm not exactly sure I understand what you mean by maintaining sanity.
Basically, what I think he was saying was that by breaking the fourth wall the player is unable to make the game into a replacement for life, which is a good thing because it helps the gamer not become one of those guys who has no friends and just sits around playing games.

From experience, I think people that play Kojima's games often are more well-rounded individuals than those who play games that treat the game as a real world. It's probably due to the "breaking the fourth wall" elements included in the games.
Image
Missing
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:09 am

Post by Missing »

OtakupunkX wrote:Basically, what I think he was saying was that by breaking the fourth wall the player is unable to make the game into a replacement for life, which is a good thing because it helps the gamer not become one of those guys who has no friends and just sits around playing games.
I sincerely doubt that. If Kojima had honestly intended that, he'd have been much better off never creating games to begin with. I don't think breaking the fourth-wall barrier is in any way going to get the loners out of their parents' basement.
From experience, I think people that play Kojima's games often are more well-rounded individuals than those who play games that treat the game as a real world.
I would suggest visiting some new forums. It might help you get a better perspective of the kind of people that play Metal Gear.
OtakupunkX
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:37 am
Location: N/A
Contact:

Post by OtakupunkX »

Missing wrote:I sincerely doubt that. If Kojima had honestly intended that, he'd have been much better off never creating games to begin with. I don't think breaking the fourth-wall barrier is in any way going to get the loners out of their parents' basement.
I don't doubt it one bit. After reading the various interviews with Kojima and watching the Metal Gear Saga DVD I believe that one of his biggest goals with MGS is to better the lives of the people that play it.
Missing wrote:I would suggest visiting some new forums. It might help you get a better perspective of the kind of people that play Metal Gear.
I've encountered some of those people before. I don't think they really pay attention to the message of the game.
Image
Missing
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:09 am

Post by Missing »

OtakupunkX wrote:I've encountered some of those people before. I don't think they really pay attention to the message of the game.
I personally think it's smarter to just pick-up and play one of his games, rather than sit-down intent upon being heavily thought-provoked. It's the people who overanalyze Kojima's games that have greater issues. When I think of all the time people have spent writing analyses and theories regarding plot details, or trying to draw connections between Kojima's themes and events that are occurring in reality, it just makes me wonder what the point of it all is. I can't imagine this is the way Kojima envisions his games to be interpreted. I would imagine he strives for a much simpler reaction from players.

Of course, I think it's fine to enjoy all the little nuances of the story, and to interpret things in your own fashion, but I think spending too much time trying to unravel every last detail is unhealthy in its own way. I often wonder how creative those people could be if they put all that energy spent analyzing Kojima's games (among other things) into something personal of their own. In this way, I see his games having a negative effect on the people that play them.
OtakupunkX
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:37 am
Location: N/A
Contact:

Post by OtakupunkX »

Missing wrote:I personally think it's smarter to just pick-up and play one of his games, rather than sit-down intent upon being heavily thought-provoked. It's the people who overanalyze Kojima's games that have greater issues. When I think of all the time people have spent writing analyses and theories regarding plot details, or trying to draw connections between Kojima's themes and events that are occurring in reality, it just makes me wonder what the point of it all is. I can't imagine this is the way Kojima envisions his games to be interpreted. I would imagine he strives for a much simpler reaction from players.
It's just the same as analyzing literature, really.
Image
User avatar
Jonathan Ingram
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:34 pm
Location: Old L.A.
Contact:

Post by Jonathan Ingram »

No, it isn't exactly like literature. People often spend too long analysing plot details, intricacies and relations of these to other games in the canon. This is not what analysiing literature is about. Artemio hit the nail on the head with his analysis - about the themes of the games. Pick up any critical work on any canonic novel and there won't be pages and pages devoted to extrapolating the exact date that a character was born - it simply isn't important in the long run. Thinking of what Snake says at the end of MGS2 reminds me of this point.

And maintaining sanity in the games... a little hyperbolic maybe, but I think that I meant what was replied, that to lose yourself in the game isn't ideal. By reminding us that it is a game (or a movie) auteurs allow us to immediately take what's being presented to us and apply it to the real world that is intruding on the game/movie. To create something that is completely self-surrounding and enclosing would be detrimental to conveying an effective message.
"But nothing is permanent... only change"
OtakupunkX
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:37 am
Location: N/A
Contact:

Post by OtakupunkX »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:No, it isn't exactly like literature. People often spend too long analysing plot details, intricacies and relations of these to other games in the canon. This is not what analysiing literature is about. Artemio hit the nail on the head with his analysis - about the themes of the games. Pick up any critical work on any canonic novel and there won't be pages and pages devoted to extrapolating the exact date that a character was born - it simply isn't important in the long run. Thinking of what Snake says at the end of MGS2 reminds me of this point.
My bad. I kind of rushed through Missing's post there.

What I meant to say is basically the exact thing you said, I just kind of sped through what Missing said and missed the part about "analyzing details" and all that.

Sorry for any confusion that may have caused.
Image
Missing
Second Lieutenant
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:09 am

Post by Missing »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:By reminding us that it is a game (or a movie) auteurs allow us to immediately take what's being presented to us and apply it to the real world that is intruding on the game/movie.
That's very true. To his credit, Kojima is definitely an auteur storyteller.
User avatar
Skycladiana
Runner
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:22 pm

Post by Skycladiana »

Now that GTA: Liberty City Stories is being released for the PS2, MPO might eventually find its way onto the PS2/PS3. Anybody here willing to wait that long for it and not plunk down money for a PSP, provided you don't already have one?
Post Reply