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MGS2 Game Plan talkback
Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:23 pm
by Marc
This was Kojima's closing statement in the game plan for MGS2. Comments? Reactions? Tomatoes?
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:42 am
by Bioroid
Woah. Did it say why he might be working for China?
Could it have something to do with what became EVA's character? :shock:
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:51 am
by Artemio
The Eva relation might well be about it.. as far as I know, it just says what Osiris posted.
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:37 pm
by Marc
It's from the closing section (about the <B>Patriots</B>).
-----
People they [the <B>Patriots</B>] must be careful of:
Vamp - ex-Stasi
Oldboy - former Nazi Army colonel
Snake - a spy for China?
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:12 pm
by Spike
Well, it sounds a bit too much like the typical
unexpected 'n' illogical ending twist
from a bad Hollywood movie (Why the hell would Snake work for China anyway ?).
But it's hard to judge without the complete document...
BTW I thought Old Boy was a Nazi
general (not colonel).
And Kojima never hinted at Vamp being from the Stasi in the actual game.
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:33 pm
by Marc
A lot of these are elements that were taken out of the game, yes. When you read it, you have to remember it was the very first set of ideas for the game, so of course it isn't going to match the final game. Just wait till you read the whole thing! Solidus still President and faking his death, the Ninja having 4 personalities, Johnny Sasaki-Slayter working for the <B>Patriots</B>...
But anyway, that is the only point in the document when the Snake-China connection is mentioned. You can imagine my surprise when I read it.
Where did you read that Oldboy (I write it as one word to match the other one-word Dead Cell members) is a general? The document specifically uses the word for 'colonel' (taisa).
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:52 pm
by Skycladiana
Could it just be what the <B>Patriots</B> assumed Snake was, at first? After all, if the <B>Patriots</B> are the American branch of what used to be the Philosophers, perhaps they'd fear that Snake, now wanted by the US Government, would ally himself with one of their competitors to protect himself. They know that Snake wouldn't team up with the Russians, since at that time everybody still thought that Ocelot was working for them, leaving the only logical possibility at the time as the Chinese.
I think this makes sense. It would be like the arrogant, overconfident <B>Patriots</B> to assume that Snake would wish to simply continue his mercenary ways and work for whoever paid and protected best, instead of actually fighting for what he believed in. However, it doesn't make too much sense pre-MGS3 and still takes too much thought to wrangle around in what is an already overloading, confusing game.
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:57 pm
by Marc
Like you said, I don't think Kojima had thought about the details of MGS3's plot before 2, as it's evident from the document how much he makes up as he goes along. I don't know exactly what he meant by the Snake-China line, and as a lot of the document's contents go all over the place, I wouldn't put any stock in it. I just thought it was worth sharing with everyone.
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:36 pm
by Johnny Undaunted
Osiris wrote:Johnny Sasaki-Slayter working for the <B><B>Patriots</B></B>... .
Yeah. IIRC, the part where Ames died was originally scripted for Johnny. And in turn, Ames was supposed to have a larger role. There was no President Johnson.
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:04 pm
by Marc
It also says Ames has a cauliflower ear from his judo, a trait shared with Michael Saito from Policenauts. That would have been one of the most hardcore references between his games.
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:53 am
by Spike
Osiris wrote:A lot of these are elements that were taken out of the game, yes. When you read it, you have to remember it was the very first set of ideas for the game, so of course it isn't going to match the final game.
Of course.
Osiris wrote:Just wait till you read the whole thing! Solidus still President and faking his death, the Ninja having 4 personalities, Johnny Sasaki-Slayter working for the <B><B>Patriots</B></B>...
Ah, interesting. But I already knew the "Sasaki-<B>Patriots</B>' spy" tidbit.
I also hope the game plan explains the Liquid-possessed arm trick...
Osiris wrote:But anyway, that is the only point in the document when the Snake-China connection is mentioned. You can imagine my surprise when I read it.
Yeah, that's what I said... An unexpected and illogical ending twist, because there's nothing in the document that could explain why Snake would work for the Chinese... It's not like if Kojima had hinted at Snake working for another country in the whole game plan...
Osiris wrote:Where did you read that Oldboy (I write it as one word to match the other one-word Dead Cell members) is a general? The document specifically uses the word for 'colonel' (taisa).
Here.
I guess you know Japanese better than they do...
And I write
Old Boy because :
1) Normally, that sould be written that way (and, written in one word, it feels strange... at least for me).
2) In
The Art of Metal Gear Solid 2, Old Man (his other name) was written in two words.
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:47 am
by Marc
I originally wrote it as 'Old Boy', too, but then later changed it. I think I'll change it back, for reasons that will become apparent when you read it.
Maybe it does say 'general' in the art book. Can anyone confirm this? It wouldn't be the first time Kojima's made a contradiction.
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:42 am
by Spike
Osiris wrote:Maybe it does say 'general' in the art book. Can anyone confirm this? It wouldn't be the first time Kojima's made a contradiction.
No, there's no mention of Old Boy's rank in the artbook (just the image I posted above).
I think the guy at Wikipedia just screwed up with his translation.
I'd also like to know how long is the game plan and when will it be added to Junker HQ, please.

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:48 am
by Marc
Yes, sorry for the delay. I've been a little busy lately.
It's 36 pages (of type 10 font). I can't say when it'll be up there, but I'll send it to you as soon as it's done, since you're doing a translation of it.
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:04 pm
by Spike
Osiris wrote:Yes, sorry for the delay. I've been a little busy lately.
It's 36 pages (of type 10 font). I can't say when it'll be up there, but I'll send it to you as soon as it's done, since you're doing a translation of it.
You don't need to apologize, you know.
Oh. I thought it was shorter than that (about 15 pages). Well, I'll have to work a bit harder.
Okay, that's really nice.
Last question : do you think Kojima should have kept some of the ideas which were in the game plan only ? (According to me, the "schizophrenic ninja" sounds way better than Olga "I uselessy quote Gray Fox" Gurlukovich).
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:49 pm
by Marc
The scans of the Japanese version totaled 15 pages, but English versions of Japanese works usually come out longer.
I'm not sure what to say about the dropped ideas. In many ways, the game turned out better than the way it's structured in this original plan. I would have liked to see the other Dead Cell members remain, and the anonymous Ninja was a cool idea, but for many of these elements to be implemented, you would have had to change the structure of the story back to the way it was. And it was definitely better having Johnny as a cameo than as a main character who gets killed off. I don't want to talk too much about it before people have had the chance to read it, though. Why don't we discuss it more then?
Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:22 pm
by OtakupunkX
Osiris wrote: Why don't we discuss it more then?
Word.
Do you have any idea as to when the translation will be done? I'm really wanting to read this thing.
Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:34 pm
by Marc
It's done (as of yesterday), it's just waiting to go up. Not sure of the date yet.
Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:43 pm
by OtakupunkX
You are my hero. If you weren't overseas I would buy you a beer or something.
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:01 pm
by hybridtheory
Osiris you're hero to non japanese speaking/reading audiences many thanks for taking the time and dedication do this.
Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:45 pm
by Masaki
Thanks for translating it. Must have been quite tiring.
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:39 am
by Marc
It wasn't that bad. Just the contradictions and ambiguities annoyed me sometimes (it was like trying to read Kojima's mind).

??:
Like in one paragraph he says Ocelot kills Fortune's father, then near the end he says Solidus kills Fortune's father, then a few paragraphs later he's got the father commiting suicide. Poor guy.
Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:52 am
by Spike
Osiris wrote:I don't want to talk too much about it before people have had the chance to read it, though. Why don't we discuss it more then?
Okay, here's my opinion :
Things they should have kept :
- The female Ninja (btw Osiris, I disagree, I think they could have kept it as it was in the game plan, with Olga giving only Codec support. Or they could have changed it that way : during the game, the Ninja acts as if she was Naomi/Wolf/Meryl, but, in the end, we learn that it was actually Olga.
- Old Boy (But I still don't get how a Nazi colonel could have worked with an African-American woman and a Vietnamese-Chinese)
- Gurlukovich soldiers' uprising : therefore, we could have better "understood" who Olga died for (in the final game, it feels like Olga sacrified her life for people who wet their pants when you "freeze" them).
- The Roman names for soldier enemies.
- The aquarium : therefore, we could have better "understood" the environemental menace.
- Split-screen mode
- Snake and Raiden having to swim through the hostages' corpses (but Otacon wouldn't have anymore any "heroic moment" that way).
- Snake fighting with Ocelot during the ultimate battle and people nearby watching.
- Emphasis on Snake and Otacon being terrorists.
- Backstory on the game world's political state, on Philanthropy, on Naomi, ...
- Rose being a hostage.
- The other Codec supporting cast (but they maybe look too similar to the MGS1 one, so we would perhaps have guessed the plot twist).
- The Big Shell being used for "digging up" gold.
- Mantis Mask Mode.
- Fortune and Vamp being lovers. Fortune having a blood disease and Vamp having to suck her blood to cure her.
- Stillman wearing a photo of the victims of the bomb and claiming them to be his family. Stillman being responsible for Vamp's church's explosion.
- Solidus still being the President.
Things that they did well by dumping :
- The Arsenal Ship plot : too redundant with the Arsenal Gear one.
- Johnny Sasaki being a <B>Patriots</B>' spy : he's a joke character (even if his "I want to leave peacefully alone." sounds kind of nice).
- Snake being a spy for China : works better in MGS3.
- Chinaman : I think this character is ridiculous (if you've read
The Last Days of FOXHOUND, you'll see what I mean).
- Dead Cell's motives for becoming terrorists : because they aren't well paid anymore ! lol
- Vamp's fear of cross : Too vampire-like. Besides I don't see Pliskin/Snake wearing one.
- Fortune's fortune cookies.
- Revealing that the <B>Patriots</B> were actual people.
But don't get me wrong. I loved how MGS2
is.