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Solidus - Only child??

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:02 am
by GcDiaz
Bear with me:

One of my bathroom theories states that Solidus isn't from the exact stock that Solid and Liquid are. The "proof" lies in the fact that Solidus looks so much OLDER than the other two. Is it possible that Solidus was cloned first, as an exact copy, and that later Solid and Liquid were created as part of an experiment where Big Boss' good genes were to be separated from the bad ones? It would explain why Ocelot refers to Solidus as the "Well balanced individual" at the end of MGS1.

So if Solidus is the only accurate copy of Big Boss, and Liquid is the superior clone, then basically the S3 plan is not based around replicating Solid's gene heritage, but his warrior spirit. That's what made him so good; good enough to overcome his recessive genes and beat all comers. Methinks memes play a bigger role than we thought.

I could be wrong.

Re: Solidus - Only child??

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:09 am
by Artemio
GcDiaz wrote:So if Solidus is the only accurate copy of Big Boss, and Liquid is the superior clone, then basically the S3 plan is not based around replicating Solid's gene heritage, but his warrior spirit. That's what made him so good; good enough to overcome his recessive genes and beat all comers. Methinks memes play a bigger role than we thought.

I could be wrong.

That has been exactly the roles genes play, being it that spolidus is from the same batch or another, tehsecond MGS2 (at one level) is about replicating the meme profile of Big Boss/Solid Snake/ etc

Hmmm...

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:11 pm
by shoryuken_justice
I don't know anything about genes other than I look bad in them, but the theory does make sense. If Solidus was indeed President Sears in 2005, then he must have been born before 1972, as the age requirement for President is 35 (Solidus would've been 32 in 2004, when he was most likely would've been elected). Am I forgetting about any backstory involving Sears's predecessor being killed/impeached and him taking office as former VP?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:09 pm
by GcDiaz
Well what I was thinking was that since Solid did not have the Ultimate Warrior genes, then what exactly made him so good? How did he become such a natural? Were his past missions really "training" like Raiden's mission was?

It...OH SHIT!! It just occurred to me: what if MG and MG: Solid Snake are the simulations of what Naked Snake went thru with The Boss? What if MGS2 is actually "S3 Plan, Part 2"? This would be the ultimate evolutionary experiment!

Let's take a trip thru my imagination for a bit:
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Boss is the title awarded to that soldier seen as the ultimate human specimen. The Boss was indeed "Boss" (as she readily demonstrated several times during MGS3), until Naked Snake (who BTW, was a nuke test subject like the Boss was) defeated her in battle. So there's a new Boss, and someone thinks: "How much of his battle skill really had to do with what he learned? How much of it was genetic? How do we determine this?" He was obviously cloned (Solidus), but they must've realized that his genes were not exactly OEM, since there's no telling what effect the nuke tests had on him. That would invalidate the experiment. So they made two new clones, this time ensuring that one clone (Liquid) would inherit any benefits stemming from the nuke radiation, while the other (Solid) inherited any detriments. Then it was just a matter of observing which of the Brothers made the better soldier (I'm guessing there weren't any other supersoldiers running around at this time, besides Foxhound).

Now, it is undeniable that in fields such as combat, experience goes a LONG way. Naked Snake didn't get his skills from a textbook; he was taught by The Boss (both in field training, and via her betrayal). If Solid was to be the proof that genetics were not involved in Big Boss' success, he had to be groomed, using a method that would lead to his development in a way similar to Big Boss'. Zanzibar and Outer Heaven provided the perfect scenarios, and Solid came thru with flying colors. Liquid, as the proof that genetics had everything to do with it, didn't need such experiences. He got his own training, completed his own missions (no doubt motivated by his mistaken belief that he was the inferior clone), and so became a competent soldier in his own right, eventually coming to lead FoxHound like his father before him. He relied on nothing but his natural abilities.

So now you have the two "special" Big Boss clones (here I'm assuming that Solidus was reserved for bigger & better things - like the Presidency), both of them outstanding soldiers of reknown, both of them unknowing champions of their respective causes. How to finally prove the hypothesis? SHADOW MOSES.

As we all know, Solid was the winner of the ultimate contest (not against the Hind, not even against Rex, but against Liquid in man-to-man combat). Does this prove that Big Boss' genes did not help him achieve success? Not really. Solid may have the recessive genes, but those are still the genes of the greatest soldier ever known. So what now? To really discount genes as an advantage in battle, it would take the introduction of someone with no supergenetic heritage whatsoever: a perfectly "normal" guy.

Enter the Raiden: Someone who has undergone all the training, yet has no previous field experience, hence no "battlefield trauma" or genetic tampering, or nuclear testing to pollute the sample. A totally clean slate, perfect for this phase of The Plan.
The objective this time was to conclusively prove what Solid demonstrated - that genetics do not make the soldier, but experience. Shadow Moses was the greatest test of Solid's abilities - what better scenario to use? Enter the Big Shell: A crisis situation remarkably (but not obviously) similar to what Solid Snake dealt with. Could a normal person, trained but not experienced, attain Solid's level of real-world skill thru emulation? Raiden defeated all his opponents, completed all his missions, dealt with all contingencies, and THEN as the icing on the cake, went on to defeat the only "perfect" clone of History's Greatest Soldier. Solidus! And there's the proof.

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That's it. I didn't go into whether or not Raiden had a father figure like Solid did, just cuz I'm not sure what role Solidus played in his life (I know he killed Raiden's parents, but did he adopt him like GreyFox adopted Naomi?I'll have to replay MGS2 for that detail).

Fire away.

Hmmm...

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:51 pm
by shoryuken_justice
Impressive. Most impressive.

And by impressive, I mean I'm impressed.

And it has left quite an impression on me.

I'm going to buy an Impresario..

okay, sorry, for something that wasn't funny to begin with, I took that too far.

Anyway, it makes a lot of sense, although we still aren't sure if Solidus was born before the other Sons of Big Boss. If my presidential theory is correct, then he must have...

Perhaps Solidus is... a legitimate child of Big Boss? Although Liquid and Solid supposedly are unable to pass their genes on, was Big Boss's nuclear testing prohibitive of him having children?

Something to think about...

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:58 pm
by GcDiaz
You can see in MGS2 that Solidus is noticeably older than Solid, and actually looks like an older version of Solid. Plus, Solid looks identical to Naked Snake. What are the odds of Big Boss conceiving first an identical son, and then identical twins?

Odds?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:22 pm
by shoryuken_justice
What are the odds of Big Boss conceiving first an identical son, and then identical twins?
Halfway slim, I guess.

If it were indeed the case, then either the whole Les Enfans Terribles was a lie, and Solid and Liquid are legitimate sperm cell-to-egg-to-womb children and not test tube babies made with discriminating DNA, or there are more Sons of Big Boss that we are unaware of.

My logic to the Solidus perhaps being a legitimate when-a-man-and-a-woman-love-each-other-very-much child was only because we appear to agree that Solidus was born before Liquid and Solid. If this was also the case with Liquid and Solid, then we have no idea what the Les Enfans Terribles project was, unless it wasn't so much of the scientists pictured during Liquid's speech but rather Big Boss having a wild night with a bunch of hunnies, and later referring to it as a grand experiment.

Which is kind of funny, if you imagine it.

Re: Hmmm...

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:49 am
by Nitroid
shoryuken_justice wrote: Perhaps Solidus is... a legitimate child of Big Boss? Although Liquid and Solid supposedly are unable to pass their genes on, was Big Boss's nuclear testing prohibitive of him having children?

Something to think about...
The reason why the Les Enfant Terrible project was started, was because Big Boss couldn't conceive children on his own. Due, probably, to the nuclear tests on Bikini Atoll.

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:53 am
by Painaxl
That's a very well thought out theory GC!

A few things:

1. I don't think that Big Boss could have any kids on account of his exposure to radiation (it's mentioned a few times).
2. While the president must be 35 years old to be elected, the <B>Patriots</B> were behind the electing of Solidus and could have made his age whatever they wanted.

Even though I don't necessarily buy the popular "advanced aging" theory when it comes to Solidus, I really don't think it's possible for him to not be a clone.

Re: Hmmm...

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:52 am
by Johnny Undaunted
Nitroid wrote:
shoryuken_justice wrote: Perhaps Solidus is... a legitimate child of Big Boss? Although Liquid and Solid supposedly are unable to pass their genes on, was Big Boss's nuclear testing prohibitive of him having children?

Something to think about...
The reason why the Les Enfant Terrible project was started, was because Big Boss couldn't conceive children on his own. Due, probably, to the nuclear tests on Bikini Atoll.
Not to mention it's already freaking told in the game that Solidus is a survivor of the Les Enfants Terribles project and came after Snake and Liquid. Why would anyone assume otherwise?

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:43 pm
by 87th
Doesn't it quite plainly say at the end of MGS3 that Big Boss's sons were all born from Les Enfantes Terribles on the same day?

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:30 pm
by Jack
What I'd really like to know about Mr. Sears is: judging from his behavior and his precedents, which party do you think the la-li-lu-le-lo assigned to him when they staged the elections? The public was supposed to vote a republican or a democrat?

Don't laugh, it's a serious question that puzzled me since a while.

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:14 pm
by Jonathan Ingram
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Who cares, really?

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:16 pm
by Rick Deckard
Is there even a difference between them? They look and sound the same to me.

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:42 am
by Omega579
Jack wrote:What I'd really like to know about Mr. Sears is: judging from his behavior and his precedents, which party do you think the La li lu le lo assigned to him when they staged the elections? The public was supposed to vote a republican or a democrat?
I think Solidus was an Independent.

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:36 am
by Nekura_Hoka
GCDiaz: Definitely a good theory up until the point where you speak of Raiden as unexperienced. If you recall Raiden remembers his past as a child soldier while talking to Solidus towards the end of the game.

Also the S3 plan wasn't about creating another Solid Snake or Big Boss. That was misinformation.
MGS2 - The <B>Patriots</B> wrote:The S3 is a system for controlling human will and consciousness.
S3 is not you, a soldier trained in the image of Solid Snake.
It is -- a method, a protocol,
that created a circumstance that made you what you are.
So you see, we're the S3.
Not you.

We used Shadow Moses as a paradigm for the exercise.
I wonder if you would have preferred a fantasy setting?
We chose that backdrop because of its extreme circumstances.
It was an optimal test for S3's crisis management capacity.
If the model could trigger, control and solve this,
it would be ready for any contingency.
And now, we have our proof.
Also, about Solidus. The Bikini Atoll tests took place in 1954. Solidus would have to have been born, or rather conceived, before then if he were a natural son of Naked Snake. I think MGS2 makes it clear he's not and I think we might have had some inkling in MGS3 that Naked had a son at the time.

It seems to me that accelerated aging was pruposefully induced in Solidus in order to make him appear old enough to be President of the US of A. Being a clone, his birth records would have to have been falsified anyway so his real age would have been irrelevant to the election process.

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:51 pm
by GcDiaz
Nekura_Hoka wrote: If you recall Raiden remembers his past as a child soldier while talking to Solidus towards the end of the game.

Also the S3 plan wasn't about creating another Solid Snake or Big Boss. That was misinformation.
MGS2 - The <B>la li lu le lo</B> wrote:The S3 is a system for controlling human will and consciousness.
S3 is not you, a soldier trained in the image of Solid Snake.
It is -- a method, a protocol,
that created a circumstance that made you what you are.
So you see, we're the S3.
Not you.

We used Shadow Moses as a paradigm for the exercise.
I wonder if you would have preferred a fantasy setting?
We chose that backdrop because of its extreme circumstances.
It was an optimal test for S3's crisis management capacity.
If the model could trigger, control and solve this,
it would be ready for any contingency.
And now, we have our proof.
Yeah, it had been a while since I played MGS2 when I wrote that, so please forgive the lack of fine detail. Good points. Still, didn't Raiden make a sort of conscious effort to forget his past? That may be considered "inexperienced" enough. Plus, a child soldier is still a child. I doubt that he would've engaged in actions similar to the Big Shell.

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:13 am
by Nekura_Hoka
GcDiaz wrote:Plus, a child soldier is still a child. I doubt that he would've engaged in actions similar to the Big Shell.
War is war regardless of how old you are when you fight in it. There are child soldiers fighting in conflicts around the world even now. They fight alongside adults and quickly become just as experienced in warfare. I think what you're looking for, to serve your theory, is a lack of battle trauma and realistically this is worse in young fighters than it is in older ones.

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:46 pm
by Lucifer_Alpha
I just quickly want to add that Big Boss adopted Frank Jaeger, and Frank Jaeger Adopted Naomi Hunter at one time Frank Jaeger [MG era] used an alias calling himself Frank Hunter. In that sense Naomi Hunter used the old last name of Frank, she has no knowlege of her identity. Later we learn that Solidus adopted Raiden, In the future Raiden will adopt Olga's child, theres this theme we all know from MGS about passing on a lineage or a successor, not relating to genes so much but throgh memes despite our genes we can become more. A familly bonded not by blood but by fate or circumstances, our surroundings dictate our fates.

With that said the S3 plan was said to be a way of recreating Solid Snake, but that wouldn't make much sense, recreating Big Boss would, but even that wasn't possible. In the end the reality behind the S3 plan is to controll the populus S3 actually means Selection for Societal Sanity, and as with the events of Operation Snake Eater and Solidus/Ocelot revelations, S3 is essentially a mind controll device started by "The <B>Patriots</B>" who are ver simillar to the real world CIA in MGS the CIA would be a branch of the "<B>Patriots</B>"

Genes did not make Solid Snake the Soldier he is, it was determination. That probably goes for Big Boss aswell.

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:29 am
by Aujla
It is possible that Solidus was produced along with Solid and Liquid, for example if Raiden was a child soldier then it must have been around the late 80s, which would make Solidus a late teen - old enough to be in charge of a child soldiers unit.

But I still can't think why he looks considerably older than Solid, perhaps he neer took his brothers advice to use hair dye....

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:39 am
by Johnny Undaunted
Aujla wrote:It is possible that Solidus was produced along with Solid and Liquid, for example if Raiden was a child soldier then it must have been around the late 80s, which would make Solidus a late teen - old enough to be in charge of a child soldiers unit.
Raiden was a child soldier during the Liberian Civil War, which actually lasted between 1988 and 1998.

But I still can't think why he looks considerably older than Solid, perhaps he neer took his brothers advice to use hair dye....
It's already stated in the game that all three Snake brothers suffers from accelarated aging as a side-result of the cloning process. It just happened faster on Solidus than on any of the other brothers.

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:22 am
by Nekura_Hoka
Aujla wrote:But I still can't think why he looks considerably older than Solid, perhaps he neer took his brothers advice to use hair dye....
There is also a well known phenomenon that US Presidents age very poorly while in office.

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:22 am
by Jonathan Ingram
Nekura_Hoka wrote:
Aujla wrote:But I still can't think why he looks considerably older than Solid, perhaps he neer took his brothers advice to use hair dye....
There is also a well known phenomenon that US Presidents age very poorly while in office.
Haha, yes, and anyone in that sort of power. Look at Tony Blair, that boy has aged badly whilst being Prime Minister.

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:40 am
by Snake Plissken
Jonathan Ingram wrote:
Nekura_Hoka wrote:
Aujla wrote:But I still can't think why he looks considerably older than Solid, perhaps he neer took his brothers advice to use hair dye....
There is also a well known phenomenon that US Presidents age very poorly while in office.
Haha, yes, and anyone in that sort of power. Look at Tony Blair, that boy has aged badly whilst being Prime Minister.
He also makes shitty cups and cakes.

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:58 am
by Jonathan Ingram
I also hear his mother is a communist.