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Who's the real EVA?
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:43 pm
by Rolman
Originally, EVA and ADAM, the defected NSA codebreakers were both men, and ADAM was the one who infiltrated Volgin's ranks. Tatyana knew about them and so she was expecting to kill ADAM when he appeared, but she also knew she could pass for EVA because the real one would never appear. So who was this real EVA? Any thoughts?
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:43 pm
by GcDiaz
And of course she was pretty damn sure that EVA wouldn't show...methinks she offed him and took his place. And for the record, who's idea was it to give a male spy a female codename? That just doesn't happen! Unless it was Raidenovich (and y'all know why! wink, wink).
If you'll recall, Ocelot showed up at the Ruins expecting to meet The Boss, and got Snake instead. Realizing that this was NOT the defecting agent, he moved to kill him and failed miserably. I wonder why he'd play dumb like that? He obviously knew from the start what the plan entailed. He even tried to stop Volgin from fucking it all up with that nuke.
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:57 am
by Artemio
Well we know Ocelot was playing for all parts, so he had all the info and knew a lot of things beforehand. He wasn't expecting the boss, since he knew that the plans had changed and he was supposed to make contact. Thing is, he waited and let EVA do "her" thing.
Adam was the one that was supposed to show theer that night, Eva was out of the picture so that no parts would consider him missing from the start, only naked Snake had no info on the subject.
It cant be Raidenovich since they were supposed to be defecting Americans, and we only know some of the BG of Adam in that sense... whoc would have "defected" with him? Only someone that wasn't teher at the moment. That's why Ocelot grabs her and is surprised when he finds out that she is a female.... it makes perfect sense in a Kojima way to make all of us believe that he is not Adam and plays along quite well, and it works the other way around to.. knowing that he is Adam and that she wasn't supposed to be there at all, as a matter of fact no one was supposed to be there except Ocelot...
I still have to play the game agfain, I've had no time.. and have not reached any conclusions on these matters, I'll give it more time as it deserves to give educated opinions.. not just fragments of what I recall.. But it is indeed an interesting subject that would need some charting and notes to untangle to what we can.
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:40 am
by mr_crackhead_bob
Who do you supposed eliminated the real EVE then?
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:03 pm
by Artemio
mr_crackhead_bob wrote:Who do you supposed eliminated the real EVE then?
maybe he was never eliminated, simply he wasn't tehre and was not supposed to be there. I is just supositions of the CIA, we never hear about him from the Russian side.
Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:14 pm
by Rolman
Just playing for the second time in the japanese version, I am noticing some new stuff.
EVA/Tatyana appears with the objective to replace the real one and to kill ADAM to prevent him from blowing her cover. This by itself doesn't imply the real EVA was killed, but consider that she has the Scientist suit and gives Snake his brand new, custom .45 pistol. This definitely implies she knew how to help Snake and that she was receiving direct orders from the CIA.
The CIA would immediately know she's not the real agent, so why do they continue issuing orders, and why does she follow them? The CIA could have decided to play along in order to trick the Chinese into getting the wrong Philosophers' Legacy, but Tatyana couldn't have hoped to trick them into believing she was the real EVA, because the real one was a man and also a known ex-NSA agent, who purposely defected to infiltrate the USSR and was ready to receive orders after that.
She uses a radio to communicate, I assume, with both the CIA and its chinese counterpart, so unless she was using Morse Code or some other form of coded communication she learned from the real EVA and didn't involve her voice, it's hard to swallow how she could pass for the real one. Therefore, some two acceptable possibilities are that Tatyana killed the real EVA and got all that information from him, or that the original agent was there to trick the Chinese and purposely gave her that information in the first place, then let her replace him (by letting her kill him or just quietly dissapearing). I'd go for the latter theory, since it would also explain why no one from Snake's support team had a problem with EVA being a woman.
Then again, the fact that she didn't know the <B>Patriots</B> password combination when she met Snake makes this even more complicated, as it confirms that the real EVA was never supposed to show up to help Snake (that was ADAM/Ocelot's job), so how did she know how to do it?
Anyone have some more theories?
Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:28 pm
by Artemio
Well, I still ahven't played the game again.. lack of time (and I must confess Astro boy for the GBA is a work of art =P)
But from what I recall, I would rather say that Adam was the one supposed to meet Snake. When Eva appeared, he played along... and let her do her thing, that's why he says "a female spy" and all the scent thing. though he could be acting, I know.
Eva is playing just for the Chinese, and she simply is trying to do her best. Got the information of the operaion by espionage from China, nothing more. From the US side, Eva is never supposed to appear, but since they "work together (eva and adam) and most probably the US side doesn't have the full information of the actual situation, they assume everything is ok. I am not saying they don't suspect at all, they simply asre keeping secrets already, and hoping everything is ok since from the beginning they are playing along knowing what has to happen to Snake since the real mission is about the boss deflecting, and later letting herself being eliminated.
I still have to play it again, I am just saying this after one single play from the game...
Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:32 pm
by Rolman
Snatcher wrote:
But from what I recall, I would rather say that Adam was the one supposed to meet Snake. When Eva appeared, he played along... and let her do her thing, that's why he says "a female spy" and all the scent thing. though he could be acting, I know.
Yes, but that hasn't anything to do with where and how she got the information. ADAM wasn't supposed to know Tatyana was replacing EVA and it's never implied that he even knows who's she supposed to be at that time. What he does know is that China is after the Legacy and that she's got the fake one at the end. It's the biggest possibility that he realizes who she is when he discovers her from the fuel stench.
Up to this point, it's possible that the CIA didn't really know the situation there as you said, so Ocelot couldn't be informed that EVA and Tatyana were the same person (something even Snake or his support team didn't know until later on). But after she's discovered, she's included in the big picture.
In fact, Ocelot was expecting to meet The Boss while in the Virtuous Mission and got Snake instead, so he wasn't privy to all that much information. He also couldn't be acting when he catched Tatyana at the beginning of the Operation Snake Eater since he was supposed to be meeting with his contact, and got a female spy instead, he must have known it was Snake he was going to meet.
My guess is that Kojima's clever plot is to be like that. ADAM and Snake never met in the proper way to exchange passwords, but originally they were meant to do. If Tatyana hadn't shown up, things may have been very different, but the fact that Ocelot was triple-crossing the Russians and had to make everything fit in order to retrieve the Legacy (and possibly get to meet his mother) remains intact. I prefer to think Ocelot was smart enough to adapt to the new situation, rather than stand out just because of his key knowledge.
Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:19 pm
by Artemio
Rolman wrote:Snatcher wrote:I prefer to think Ocelot was smart enough to adapt to the new situation, rather than stand out just because of his key knowledge.
I agree with that completely, that is the stance I like the best since it also explains why he never does "anything" regarding the unexpected situation.
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:17 am
by Zhofe
Is it said that Ocelot is Adam, or is there just the "Adamska" comment on the plane?
Maybe Ocelot replaced Adam just like Tatyana replaced Eva. Though, I could be wrong, I haven't played the game all the way through since I first got it.
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:22 am
by randomwab
No, it is said, at the end, after the credits Ocelot says "Yes, noone knew that i was Adam" so it is said, but leaving it at Adamska would have been enough really, you couldnt have had a bigger hint
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:25 am
by Zhofe
But hints can be misleading. Anyway, I suppose the theory of Ocelot could still be valid in the case of "And I didn't even have to be Adam!"
But I am probably wrong.
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:21 pm
by FDIS
There is the chance that Tatyana had killed EVA. When she hands Snake the M1911A1 she says that she found it in some sort of armory (I think...), and that it might have belonged, "one of your soldiers" (I think...again). She might killed EVA and stolen his gun (and the suit, if EVA had the suit for some reason).
There's also the possibilty that EVA wasn't actually a codebreaker, and didn't defect. I think you could safely assume that Adam/Ocelot never defected either.
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:09 am
by Marc
It woulda been neat to see in Subsistence maybe an alternate version of the game where Snake and Ocelot meet up sans Eva's interruption and establish their link. She could have met Snake in the morning or something.