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The ending explained...

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:00 pm
by johnnythewolf
So, I'm finally done with Policenauts. I thought it was fun for the most part and that the translation was very well done, but... I'm not sure I understand the ending nor the villains' master plan. Either something is lost in the translation or Kojima's writing is at fault.
Spoiler:
So from what I understand, it turns out that three of the original policenauts are actually stereotypical evil backstabbing villains who enjoy to laugh sardonically and talk in long-winded monologues. As for Tony Redwood, he admits he actually doesn't have a grudge against Ed for killing his brother, but he does hate Jonathan for... for... something.

Then after single-handedly wiping a whole squad of AP soldiers AND a battle armor with a mere recoil gun, Jonathan reaches Gates and proceeds to expose him and Tokugawa to Beyond's population. But before he can do that, Gates tells him that the whole plan of drug trafficking and organ smuggling is about evolution and space conquest... or something like that. I'm having flashbacks of Mega Man X8's ending all of a sudden...
Honestly, what was it all about? Why would the villains do this? Am I missing something?

Please explain.

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:49 pm
by akakak4747
Spoiler:
I don't know. Their bad guys who always want the hero to come in and be like "HOT DANG I can't believe what's going on. Then the bad guy gives the speech to the hero guy for about 30 minutes and at the end says hes gonna finish you after explaining all that I've wanted to, to you.. But you all know by then the bad guy ends up dying just in time.

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:10 pm
by johnnythewolf
Yeah, I know it's a cliché, but still... In Snatcher, the way it is explained it makes sense, in all the Metal Gear it makes sense (maybe minus MG1), but here in Policenauts, it's like... what the hell were they thinking? I wonder if it is really intended to be that way: in the Lethal Weapons, the villains' master plans tend to be needlessly convoluted most of the time. But that could be a stretch...

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:19 pm
by Frogacuda
Kojima loves these old school plot devices. It's just a cheap way of cluing the reader in, and I actually do think the MASTER PLAN itself does make sense in this case
Spoiler:
(it's just a greed and power thing of the sort that actually does happen. Recently here in New Jersey they broke a huge corruption scandal involving drugs and organ trading tied to politicians and, oddly enough Rabbis
and he's just trying to justify himself. Would anyone really talk for 15 minutes like that? No. But they might say some dumb shit out of pride.

Kojima is also in love with the double cross and has been ever since Big Boss. Damsels in distress are also a recurring theme. I think he just likes old-timey movies. There are some film noir tones, too.

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:29 pm
by akakak4747
Spoiler:
Okay one thing. SO in the end we find out Gates Becker's bone marrow can be used for Karen. How the hell did that happen? Does that mean Lorraine was a whore or something and Karen's biological father is Gates Becker?

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:48 pm
by RyuHayabusa
akakak4747 wrote:
Spoiler:
Okay one thing. SO in the end we find out Gates Becker's bone marrow can be used for Karen. How the hell did that happen? Does that mean Lorraine was a whore or something and Karen's biological father is Gates Becker?
Spoiler:
No, Gates just happens to have the rare marrow, but Jonathan is actually Karen's biological father. It makes that pretty clear in the ending. I was also wondering about whether Gates was going to end up being her father.

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:14 am
by akakak4747
Spoiler:
Isn't Kenzo Hojo supposed to be the biological father? Where did u get Jonathan was the biological father?

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:52 am
by Frogacuda
Spoiler:
In her letter at the very end, she addresses Jonathan as her father. She grew up believing Hojo was her father, but Hojo married Lorraine while she was very pregnant and raised her as her own

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:04 am
by johnnythewolf
Frogacuda wrote:Kojima loves these old school plot devices. It's just a cheap way of cluing the reader in, and I actually do think the MASTER PLAN itself does make sense in this case
Spoiler:
(it's just a greed and power thing of the sort that actually does happen. Recently here in New Jersey they broke a huge corruption scandal involving drugs and organ trading tied to politicians and, oddly enough Rabbis
and he's just trying to justify himself. Would anyone really talk for 15 minutes like that? No. But they might say some dumb shit out of pride.

Kojima is also in love with the double cross and has been ever since Big Boss. Damsels in distress are also a recurring theme. I think he just likes old-timey movies. There are some film noir tones, too.
Yeah, but, like I said, most Kojima's villains usually end up being more complex. The main villain in Snatcher was jealous of Gillian, Liquid hated Snake for overshadowing him, and, with Peace Walker coming, it seems we haven't seen the last of Big Boss. With Policenauts, however, it is just a case of "BWAHAHAHA! I AM EVIIIIIL!", the kind we see in bad animes or most Capcom games. I was expecting some Metal Gear-esque twist, such as Ed revealing that he was reluctantly part of it or something like it, but no. It was kind of... unexpected from Kojima.

Oh well.

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:37 am
by Crane
I can agree that the villains weren't that sophisticated, and didn't have any deep or complex motivations, but...
In real life, people do awful things for the sake of power and money. Not every evil person has a convoluted backstory behind them; some people are simply greedy.

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:52 am
by Jonesy47
johnnythewolf wrote:
Spoiler:
"As for Tony Redwood, he admits he actually doesn't have a grudge against Ed for killing his brother, but he does hate Jonathan for... for... something."
I am ALSO a bit confused about this part. I mean, were there any clues in there about why this may have developed? I can't see any, but I overlooked some weird clues in Snatcher the first few times I played through. Maybe I'm just missing something.

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:08 pm
by cacetete
johnnythewolf wrote:
Frogacuda wrote:Kojima loves these old school plot devices. It's just a cheap way of cluing the reader in, and I actually do think the MASTER PLAN itself does make sense in this case
Spoiler:
(it's just a greed and power thing of the sort that actually does happen. Recently here in New Jersey they broke a huge corruption scandal involving drugs and organ trading tied to politicians and, oddly enough Rabbis
and he's just trying to justify himself. Would anyone really talk for 15 minutes like that? No. But they might say some dumb shit out of pride.

Kojima is also in love with the double cross and has been ever since Big Boss. Damsels in distress are also a recurring theme. I think he just likes old-timey movies. There are some film noir tones, too.
Yeah, but, like I said, most Kojima's villains usually end up being more complex. The main villain in Snatcher was jealous of Gillian, Liquid hated Snake for overshadowing him, and, with Peace Walker coming, it seems we haven't seen the last of Big Boss. With Policenauts, however, it is just a case of "BWAHAHAHA! I AM EVIIIIIL!", the kind we see in bad animes or most Capcom games. I was expecting some Metal Gear-esque twist, such as Ed revealing that he was reluctantly part of it or something like it, but no. It was kind of... unexpected from Kojima.

Oh well.
Not true, big boss was just evil in metal gear 1 and 2.
Snatchers were just red evil comunist robots who wanted to take on the world.
And the thing with the boss's bone narrow could be just a trap to attract Johanatan to the final duel.

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:57 pm
by Frogacuda
johnnythewolf wrote:Yeah, but, like I said, most Kojima's villains usually end up being more complex. The main villain in Snatcher was jealous of Gillian, Liquid hated Snake for overshadowing him, and, with Peace Walker coming, it seems we haven't seen the last of Big Boss. With Policenauts, however, it is just a case of "BWAHAHAHA! I AM EVIIIIIL!", the kind we see in bad animes or most Capcom games.
No, I think in anime cliches (and even in some Kojima games) the villains are needlessly complicated to the point of the absurd. They want to "destroy the world in order to purify it" or some ridiculous bullshit, which annoys me far more than someone who's in it for the money. It might not be original, but that's because that's the way people really work.

The one part of it I did think was bullshit though was
Spoiler:
Why sabotage Jonathan for being a goody-two-shoes and then leave Ed alone?

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:01 pm
by Marc
I'll let you guys debate the motives of the villains, but this is not typical Kojima, where everything is spelled out to the last detail, and then repeated three more times before the end of the game. He admitted in an interview that he wanted to leave certain things up to the player.
Spoiler:
Redwood, for instance, in Kojima's own words, is "an evil without a clear motive."

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:17 pm
by Henry Spencer
It's okay Marc, a lot of people want things explicitly spelt out to them now that Metal Gear villains typically like to go on about everything in uber detail. This isn't Metal Gear, so go play that if you want the game to force the villains motives down your neck.

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:17 pm
by RyuHayabusa
Marc wrote:I'll let you guys debate the motives of the villains, but this is not typical Kojima, where everything is spelled out to the last detail, and then repeated three more times before the end of the game. He admitted in an interview that he wanted to leave certain things up to the player.
Spoiler:
Redwood, for instance, in Kojima's own words, is "an evil without a clear motive."
Spoiler:
I was actually expecting some kind of plot with the Frozeners trying to take over Beyond and make it their home. I figured Redwood would go on some spiel about how weak humans are and that Frozeners are the next step in human evolution, destined to rule space. I was kinda shocked with the way he died without any great drama or surprises.

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:22 pm
by johnnythewolf
cacetete wrote:Not true, big boss was just evil in metal gear 1 and 2.
Snatchers were just red evil comunist robots who wanted to take on the world.
And the thing with the boss's bone narrow could be just a trap to attract Johanatan to the final duel.
Indeed, but keep in mind that MG1 had barely any plot and MG2's was sketchy at best. I guess Kojima himself wasn't satisfied with it, because he has been revisiting the Big Boss character in several games already.

I'm not sure it is fair to compare the original Metal Gear games to a plot-heavy game such as Policenauts.
Henry Spencer wrote:It's okay Marc, a lot of people want things explicitly spelt out to them now that Metal Gear villains typically like to go on about everything in uber detail. This isn't Metal Gear, so go play that if you want the game to force the villains motives down your neck.
Or any post-MG1 Kojima game, for that matter.

Villains do justify their plans a lot in Policenauts - especially Salvatore, whose only purpose as a character unfortunately appears to explain the plot to the player.
Spoiler:
It's just that Gate Becker's explanations leave much to be desired. But that could also be that I wasn't all that impressed by the character to start with.

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:37 am
by Henry Spencer
johnnythewolf wrote:
cacetete wrote:Not true, big boss was just evil in metal gear 1 and 2.
Snatchers were just red evil comunist robots who wanted to take on the world.
And the thing with the boss's bone narrow could be just a trap to attract Johanatan to the final duel.
Indeed, but keep in mind that MG1 had barely any plot and MG2's was sketchy at best. I guess Kojima himself wasn't satisfied with it, because he has been revisiting the Big Boss character in several games already.

I'm not sure it is fair to compare the original Metal Gear games to a plot-heavy game such as Policenauts.
I'd say Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake was Kojima's first foray into complex plotting, actually (there's a surprising amount of dialogue in a game that is so damn old). He'd later refine it in the CDRomantic versions of Snatcher.
Henry Spencer wrote:It's okay Marc, a lot of people want things explicitly spelt out to them now that Metal Gear villains typically like to go on about everything in uber detail. This isn't Metal Gear, so go play that if you want the game to force the villains motives down your neck.
Or any post-MG1 Kojima game, for that matter.

Villains do justify their plans a lot in Policenauts - especially Salvatore, whose only purpose as a character unfortunately appears to explain the plot to the player.
Spoiler:
I honestly think the only one whom you could complain who's overall plan was just that of greed and nothing more, was Tokugawa. Chris, Redwood, Salvatore and Gatse were more complex then that I reckon. Lets not forget Ishida, who was in the end up, against everybody. I found it wonderfully refreshing for a change, especially from the likes of Kojima, that the villains weren't too complex, like sometimes in the Metal Gear series.

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:02 pm
by johnnythewolf
Henry Spencer wrote:
Spoiler:
I honestly think the only one whom you could complain who's overall plan was just that of greed and nothing more, was Tokugawa. Chris, Redwood, Salvatore and Gatse were more complex then that I reckon. Lets not forget Ishida, who was in the end up, against everybody. I found it wonderfully refreshing for a change, especially from the likes of Kojima, that the villains weren't too complex, like sometimes in the Metal Gear series.
Oh, I'm not asking for overcomplicated villains and long-winded explanations either. These can get tiresome, I agree. It's just that I'm disappointed by how Kojima handled some of the villains.
Spoiler:
Gates, for instance, appeared at first as a respectable and thoughtful character with a strong sense of duty. Of course, with all the Lethal Weapon influences, it was to be expected that he would eventually turn against Jonathan, but I was expecting him to be a more nuanced character, or at least not just a typical cardboard villain who's evil because he can. Even with MG2 and its plot limitations, it was already hinted back then that there were more to Big Boss than just an evil tyrant. MGS would prove this assumption.

As for Salvatore, the character had virtually no depth. He was just a verbose lackey without any real personality. I was expecting some Pesci-like antics, but no.

I don't regard Ishida as a villain. I can live with Redwood remaining a total enigma, and I actually didn't mind Tokugawa being a greedy kingpin because, well, he looked like one.

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:53 pm
by Henry Spencer
johnnythewolf wrote:
Henry Spencer wrote:
Spoiler:
I honestly think the only one whom you could complain who's overall plan was just that of greed and nothing more, was Tokugawa. Chris, Redwood, Salvatore and Gatse were more complex then that I reckon. Lets not forget Ishida, who was in the end up, against everybody. I found it wonderfully refreshing for a change, especially from the likes of Kojima, that the villains weren't too complex, like sometimes in the Metal Gear series.
Oh, I'm not asking for overcomplicated villains and long-winded explanations either. These can get tiresome, I agree. It's just that I'm disappointed by how Kojima handled some of the villains.
Spoiler:
Gates, for instance, appeared at first as a respectable and thoughtful character with a strong sense of duty. Of course, with all the Lethal Weapon influences, it was to be expected that he would eventually turn against Jonathan, but I was expecting him to be a more nuanced character, or at least not just a typical cardboard villain who's evil because he can. Even with MG2 and its plot limitations, it was already hinted back then that there were more to Big Boss than just an evil tyrant. MGS would prove this assumption.

As for Salvatore, the character had virtually no depth. He was just a verbose lackey without any real personality. I was expecting some Pesci-like antics, but no.

I don't regard Ishida as a villain. I can live with Redwood remaining a total enigma, and I actually didn't mind Tokugawa being a greedy kingpin because, well, he looked like one.
I think
Spoiler:
Salvatore actually ended up succumbing to his miserable life. If you remember, he went through two divorces and quit BCP. Without any purpose in his life, he once again joined up with Gates and Tokugawa. He also went on about space driving people to the point of insanity, maybe he was cracking under the pressure? That's the impression I got from him. As for Gates, he actually believed that what he was doing was for the betterment of Beyond. He wished to be seen in the right all of the time, at least Tokugawa never denied what he was doing was wrong (and was in it for the money). Gates on the other hand, was in such utter denial about the entire thing, that he believed the whole organ trafficking to be the right thing to do, since humanity was in such dire straights otherwise. Chris has clear cut motives, though; the only one we could agree on. Redwood was just a bad egg from the start, no redeeming factors, which I like in my villains. I'm not really a fan of "tragic" characters that much anyway, they tend to be forced in the Metal Gear series, to the point of where I'm expecting the main villain to have a tragic backstory, and that's cliché to me, so it was a nice surprise for the villains, especially in a Kojima game, to be as evil as they were for a change!

Re: The ending explained...

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:32 pm
by johnnythewolf
Henry Spencer wrote:I think
Spoiler:
Salvatore actually ended up succumbing to his miserable life. If you remember, he went through two divorces and quit BCP. Without any purpose in his life, he once again joined up with Gates and Tokugawa. He also went on about space driving people to the point of insanity, maybe he was cracking under the pressure? That's the impression I got from him.


Guess I missed that part. Still, I do believe the character could have used more screen time.
Henry Spencer wrote:
Spoiler:
As for Gates, he actually believed that what he was doing was for the betterment of Beyond. He wished to be seen in the right all of the time, at least Tokugawa never denied what he was doing was wrong (and was in it for the money). Gates on the other hand, was in such utter denial about the entire thing, that he believed the whole organ trafficking to be the right thing to do, since humanity was in such dire straights otherwise. Chris has clear cut motives, though; the only one we could agree on. Redwood was just a bad egg from the start, no redeeming factors, which I like in my villains. I'm not really a fan of "tragic" characters that much anyway, they tend to be forced in the Metal Gear series, to the point of where I'm expecting the main villain to have a tragic backstory, and that's cliché to me, so it was a nice surprise for the villains, especially in a Kojima game, to be as evil as they were for a change!
Well, Metal Gear has its share of actual *evil* villains too: Vamp, Fatman, Solidus, The <B>Patriots</B>, Voronin... It's just that they aren't as well remembered as the more tragic villains - although personally I wouldn't consider Liquid or Ocelot as "tragic" characters.

But anyway, the way you put it, the guy's motives already make more sense. That doesn't make his final moments any less goofy though, at least on PS1 - unless of course it was intentional. We can never be too sure with Kojima...