MPO theories: The Man With the Same Codename as Null...

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Post by Marc »

He wouldn't necessarily need to be alive for MGS4, though it probably wouldn't be as interesting if he wasn't.
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Post by Skycladiana »

Henry Spencer wrote:
Gaff wrote:Something tells me that it can't be Campbell, even though some people are going off the "Grey Fox - Chicken Fox" same codename possibility. Firstly, here's the main reason why it can't be Campbell -- Null wasn't even known as Grey Fox until he joined FOXHOUND, which wasn't even established until late 1971 - after the events of Portable Ops. Also, Null = nothing = 0 = Zero. Kind of obvious, I know, but just stating the facts via a process of elimination.

First and foremost, it isn't Campbell. That's guaranteed, more or less. Which leaves either Zero, or a new character. Personally, I'm hoping it's Zero. I mean, come on, it's always the British who turn out to be the villains. If Kojima knows his movies, then he must be aware of the cliche. Secondly, there's that whole "Who are the <B><B><B>Patriots</B></B></B>? -- La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo" message in MGS3, which I see as more of a premonition than an easter egg, a prelude of things to come.
One problem; Zero will be dead since he would be well over one hundred in MGS4! Unless he wants another Elijah Modnar of course. :lol: (Not meaning in age I know Zero would eb around the age of Elijah's father, but that's besides the point; what I meant was Zero would have life force machinary and would be unable to do anything at all, which was my comparison). If it is indeed Zero.

Who knows, perhaps Ocelot is just trying to set up Zero by saying that? I mean, he is calling him Null, just in case his voice is recorded by any of the other rival Philosophers. It would certainly mislead them; have you ever thought of that theory? If you think about it, Ocelot is almost making it too obvious that it is Zero, perhaps for a reason; which I have stated.

I still think it is Campbell.
Well, there was that last bit in MGS2 where Otacon discovered the apparent list of the <B>Patriots</B> they found contained the names of people who'd been dead for a hundred years, or something. I figured it was probably the Wisemen's Comittee from the Philosophers, but perhaps it's somehow connected to Zero, though I'm not sure how. Anyway, he could pop up in some way, possibly as an AI. Stranger things have happened, though I'm hoping this plot thread is resolved in another MPO game where Big Boss can find it out for himself.

As for Campbell-- that'd certainly be the more damaging realization for Solid Snake, so if this bit is cleared up in MGS4, it's a clear possibility. If it does happen, though, it'll be the umpteenth time that he's been revealed to be not what he appears to be, and figuring out which side he's on will be even more difficult than usual. The only way it would work is if he confesses to Snake his complicity in all these events, since I'm not sure anybody will necessarily buy him as the evil mastermind behind everything. Guilt needs to be assigned somewhere, and Campbell showing remorse would be interesting, unless it makes more sense for him to be innocent, which it kinda does. After all, how does him feeding Ocelot all this information and manipulating everything behind the scenes actually correspond to logic, anyway?

Zero I can buy as a mastermind. Not Campbell. Also, Ocelot doesn't call the "Mystery Man" Null-- Gene is the one who says he believes Ocelot's backer is "The Man With the Same Code-Name as Null." It's unlikely that anyone is listening, especially the Philosophers, since the last remaining traces of them are wiped out in this game as the DCI and his men are assasinated. That mid-game phone call is there purely as implicit exposition for us, the audience, and dropping such a conspicuous hint only for it to turn out to be a red herring wouldn't make much sense, since it wouldn't be misleading any of the actual game's characters. If Snake overheard TMWTSCNAN information, then maybe it'd be a possible switcheroo situation, but not likely. Remember that the only reason we have right not to suspect Campbell at all is because of the same type of Chicken Fox/Gray Fox connection-- if Zero can't be "The Man With the Same Code-Name as Null," then neither can Campbell.
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Post by Henry Spencer »

Skycladiana wrote:
Henry Spencer wrote:
Gaff wrote:Something tells me that it can't be Campbell, even though some people are going off the "Grey Fox - Chicken Fox" same codename possibility. Firstly, here's the main reason why it can't be Campbell -- Null wasn't even known as Grey Fox until he joined FOXHOUND, which wasn't even established until late 1971 - after the events of Portable Ops. Also, Null = nothing = 0 = Zero. Kind of obvious, I know, but just stating the facts via a process of elimination.

First and foremost, it isn't Campbell. That's guaranteed, more or less. Which leaves either Zero, or a new character. Personally, I'm hoping it's Zero. I mean, come on, it's always the British who turn out to be the villains. If Kojima knows his movies, then he must be aware of the cliche. Secondly, there's that whole "Who are the <B><B><B><B>Patriots</B></B></B></B>? -- La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo" message in MGS3, which I see as more of a premonition than an easter egg, a prelude of things to come.
One problem; Zero will be dead since he would be well over one hundred in MGS4! Unless he wants another Elijah Modnar of course. :lol: (Not meaning in age I know Zero would eb around the age of Elijah's father, but that's besides the point; what I meant was Zero would have life force machinary and would be unable to do anything at all, which was my comparison). If it is indeed Zero.

Who knows, perhaps Ocelot is just trying to set up Zero by saying that? I mean, he is calling him Null, just in case his voice is recorded by any of the other rival Philosophers. It would certainly mislead them; have you ever thought of that theory? If you think about it, Ocelot is almost making it too obvious that it is Zero, perhaps for a reason; which I have stated.

I still think it is Campbell.
Well, there was that last bit in MGS2 where Otacon discovered the apparent list of the <B><B>Patriots</B></B> they found contained the names of people who'd been dead for a hundred years, or something. I figured it was probably the Wisemen's Comittee from the Philosophers, but perhaps it's somehow connected to Zero, though I'm not sure how. Anyway, he could pop up in some way, possibly as an AI. Stranger things have happened, though I'm hoping this plot thread is resolved in another MPO game where Big Boss can find it out for himself.

As for Campbell-- that'd certainly be the more damaging realization for Solid Snake, so if this bit is cleared up in MGS4, it's a clear possibility. If it does happen, though, it'll be the umpteenth time that he's been revealed to be not what he appears to be, and figuring out which side he's on will be even more difficult than usual. The only way it would work is if he confesses to Snake his complicity in all these events, since I'm not sure anybody will necessarily buy him as the evil mastermind behind everything. Guilt needs to be assigned somewhere, and Campbell showing remorse would be interesting, unless it makes more sense for him to be innocent, which it kinda does. After all, how does him feeding Ocelot all this information and manipulating everything behind the scenes actually correspond to logic, anyway?

Zero I can buy as a mastermind. Not Campbell. Also, Ocelot doesn't call the "Mystery Man" Null-- Gene is the one who says he believes Ocelot's backer is "The Man With the Same Code-Name as Null." It's unlikely that anyone is listening, especially the Philosophers, since the last remaining traces of them are wiped out in this game as the DCI and his men are assasinated. That mid-game phone call is there purely as implicit exposition for us, the audience, and dropping such a conspicuous hint only for it to turn out to be a red herring wouldn't make much sense, since it wouldn't be misleading any of the actual game's characters. If Snake overheard TMWTSCNAN information, then maybe it'd be a possible switcheroo situation, but not likely. Remember that the only reason we have right not to suspect Campbell at all is because of the same type of Chicken Fox/Gray Fox connection-- if Zero can't be "The Man With the Same Code-Name as Null," then neither can Campbell.
Yes, that is exactly why I want it to be Campbell and not Zero. It would add emotional impact, since both Snake and Campbell have become old men and some would argue, have been doing so since Big Boss first met him; they have been the best of friends, getting older and older together, in other words, have been through a lot, besides the fact that if Campbell was pulling the strings, I can imagine like Rose did with Raiden; actually have genuine (brotherly) feelings for his best friend.

And about that 'Null' name being spoken by Gene; I think it might simply refer to nothing quite literally after all, maybe we are all simply falling into Kojima's trap? He loves messing with our minds remember. :smile:
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Post by Skycladiana »

Yeah-- and what I'm saying is that "The Man With the Same Code-Name as Null" line is the only piece of evidence that points to Campbell, as in the Chicken Fox/Gray Fox connection. If that line was just a red herring, there's no reason to suspect Campbell at all. What other evidence is really in MPO to support him as the mastermind?
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Post by Henry Spencer »

None. I know, wouldn't that mean though, that Campbell is good at hiding his tracks? :wink:
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Post by Skycladiana »

Nah, Kojima isn't that lazy and cheap. For all our bitching and whining he actually does do a good job of setting up clues for us to follow. For Campbell to be revealed to be the mastermind without any hints, as you're suggesting, would be just plain stupid.
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Post by Marc »

He often does, but I'm disappointed he never alluded to the <B>Patriots</B> in MGS1 (if he truly had them in mind at that time, it would've been nice). The "different group" Liquid Miller refers to is actually the DIA, not the <B>Patriots</B>, according to the game script. Then the meaning of Campbell's Japanese response is closer to "That just can't be possible" rather than "Could it be them...?"

TTS's extra dialogue is what I would have expected in MGS1 if he truly had it planned out and isn't just making parts up as he goes along.
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Post by Henry Spencer »

Yeah, Kojima does it in a lot of his games, like in MGS2; Rose being an agent for The <B>Patriots</B> for example, that was very random. Some may argue, because Campbell was used as by the AI of The <B>Patriots</B>; that he is also a member of The <B>Patriots</B>. :eek:
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Post by Marc »

I think they used Campbell as the AI more for convenience than anything else.

Anyway, what is the deal with Campbell having the word Fox in his codename? I thought Gray Fox was the only member to be called Fox?
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Post by Spike »

Osiris wrote:what is the deal with Campbell having the word Fox in his codename? I thought Gray Fox was the only member to be called Fox?
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Post by Marc »

No, what I meant was why do they say in MGS1 that Gray Fox was the only member ever given the codename Fox? It's even Campbell who says it.

Maybe it was a retcon (yet why does it appear in DGN?).
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Post by Skycladiana »

To me, the whole Campbell/Chicken Fox thing never made any sense and really just seemed like a piece of arcane trivia nobody but die-hard fans would know about. which is why I doubt the "Null" connection leading to him.

As for the DIA thing-- could somebody compare back-to-back the original MGS and TTS translations of that scene?
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Post by Marc »

That scene is the same in TTS. What I thought was different was Liquid's dialogue on top of REX, but now that I think about it, I think it's the same as MGS1, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by Skycladiana »

On top of REX-- you mean the part where he says "I'm the one father chose," etc? That part never made sense to me. Is Liquid saying that Big Boss contacted him prior to his death? Is he talking about his genes? Eh.

Anyway, in either case Kojima never explicitly states who "They" are in the conversation. Just because the script notes implicate the DIA originally doesn't mean that "They" can't be the <B>Patriots</B> in hindsight. It seems so purposefully ambigious that an ordinary group wouldn't make as much sense. Tell me-- is there any possibility Kojima indicated any directions as for the translation of that scene, as he's done at other times? Maybe he's where the sudden foreshadowy tone comes from.
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Post by Marc »

Perhaps by "chose" he means Big Boss chose Liquid to carry on his legacy of creating conflict, etc. I was going to use his line, "He always told me I was inferior," to justify regular contact, but I looked at it again and the original line is more like, "He knew I was inferior yet still chose me, and now I'll have my revenge!"

About the DIA thing -- yeah, there's no reason why it couldn't really be the <B>Patriots</B>, but the connection could have just been something he did later. So I suppose there's no way of knowing for sure. There are no translation cues there, but in the stage notes it says that the group Master is referring to is the DIA. Then we learn in MGS2 that Ames was running the operation for the <B>Patriots</B> as a DIA agent, but that doesn't mean it was set out like that from the start. I wish someone would ask Kojima in an interview if he created the <B>Patriots</B> in his mind during MGS1. You know, ask the questions we really want to know! :smile:
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Post by Skycladiana »

...so Big Boss did communicate with Liquid? See, this is the stuff I wish there were script notes clarifying.
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Post by Henry Spencer »

Definitely the most complex gaming series I have played...not a good thing either. :lol:
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Post by Gaff »

I'm just hoping there's a sequel to Portable Ops, that way it would be more fitting for the "mystery man" to turn out to be Major Zero. Other than that, I like the Pettrovich Modnar approach he could take in MGS4, being hooked up to a life support machine into his hundreds. He could also be like Lucius DeBeers from Deus Ex, reduced to the position of an advisor for the <B>Patriots</B>, or (staying in the Deus Ex vein), he takes on a similar role to Helios.

Okay, now that's just insane.
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Post by Henry Spencer »

Gaff wrote:I'm just hoping there's a sequel to Portable Ops, that way it would be more fitting for the "mystery man" to turn out to be Major Zero. Other than that, I like the Pettrovich Modnar approach he could take in MGS4, being hooked up to a life support machine into his hundreds. He could also be like Lucius DeBeers from Deus Ex, reduced to the position of an advisor for the <B><B>Patriots</B></B>, or (staying in the Deus Ex vein), he takes on a similar role to Helios.

Okay, now that's just insane.
Yeah, it would be a great Snatcher reference; as big a reference as Metal Gear mkII making it's appearance. And the Deus Ex idea is great as well.
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