Gears of War

A forum to talk about stuff that doesn't fit in other categories, such as general Kojima games discussion, other games, etc.
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ActiveAero
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Post by ActiveAero »

I'd love to be the head of some of these so called "top" game development studios just to try an experiment out on them.

I'd tell them to come up with their initial ideas and don't touch a single piece of development hardware until I said so. While they fumble around imagining all of the cool new graphical hardware tricks I'd replaced all of their next gen development kits with outdated computers along the graphical lines of the SNES /Genesis/etc. When it came time to get down to business I'd pull back the cover and say "Here ya go. Once you prove to me you can actually design an interesting game with a compelling story then I'll think about letting you transfer the idea over to something that can actually put out more than 50 polygons. Have fun."

I honestly believe a less extreme approach like this would actually benefit the gaming community greatly. Force developers to design the game from the ground up on a severely de-tuned version of the graphical engine they will eventually use and don't let them add textures, dynamics lighting or hight polygon count environments/characters until the game is actually fun.

I'd be willing to bet 50% of the "top" video game studios couldn't put out a single thing worth playing under such criteria.
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Henry Spencer
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Favorite Game: Shenmue I, MGS, Snatcher, Zelda: Ocarina Of Time.
Kojima games owned: Metal Gear (NES)
Metal Gear: Ghost Babel (GB)
Metal Gear Solid (PSX)
Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance (PS2)
Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence (PS2)
Policenauts (Saturn/PSX/3DO)
Snatcher (PC Engine/Mega CD)
Zone Of The Enders (PS2)
Zone Of The Enders 2: Special Edition (PS2)
Super Smash Bros. Brawl; it counts, right? ;P
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Post by Henry Spencer »

87th wrote:And then making an awful new Final Fight game? (Final Fight: Streetwise)
At least they tried, which is not what can be said of other companies, I mean, SEGA are awful, they shit on their fans and don't care. Capcom know what they are doing most of the time.

And yes, Aero, I agree. Game's quality have certainly gone down in quality in recent years on the whole I have found.
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87th
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Favorite Game: MetalGear 2: Solid Snake
Kojima games owned: METALGEAR SERIES
MetalGear (MSX2) [European]
MetalGear (NES) [European]
MetalGear (Famicom) [Japanese]
MetalGear 2: Solid Snake (MSX2) [Japanese]
Snake's Revenge (NES) [European]
MetalGear Solid (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Premium Pack (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Integral (PlayStation) [Japanese]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Sons Of Liberty (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance + The Document of MGS2 (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (Xbox) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PC) [European]
MetalGear AC!D (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater - Premium Pack (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear AC!D2 (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - Promo copy (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Digital Graphic Novel (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Portable Ops (PSP) [American]
MetalGear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots - Limited Edition (+ Bonus Disc, Soundtrack and 6" Old Snake Action Figure) [European]

SNATCHER SERIES
Snatcher (Mega CD) [European]
Snatcher (Saturn) [Japanese]

POLICENAUTS SERIES
Policenauts Pilot Disk (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (PlayStation) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]

ZONE OF THE ENDERS SERIES
Zone Of the Enders (PlayStation 2) [European]
Zone Of the Enders: The Second Runner - Special Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]

BOKTAI SERIES
boktai: The Sun Is In Your Hand! (Gameboy Advance) [European]
boktai 2: Solar Boy Django (Gameboy Advance) [European]

OTHER SERIES
Penguin Adventure (MSX) [European]
Kabushiki Baibai Trainer Kabutore (DS) [Japanese]

KOJIMA-RELATED GAMES
Konami Krazy Racers (Gameboy Advance) [European]
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) [American]
PSN: eighty7th
Wii Friend Code: 4890580757769739
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Post by 87th »

Snatcher wrote:Yes Capcom is a mixed bag.. but I love them anyway. They have deep lows, and steep highs.
Oh yeah, they've done a lot of great stuff recently (Resident Evil 4 and killer7 are both in my all time top-five), but they've done a lot of terrible things, too (getting rid of Clover is the main one). I'd hardly use Capcom as an example of a company who are doing it right.
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Post by Marc »

ActiveAero wrote:I'd love to be the head of some of these so called "top" game development studios just to try an experiment out on them.

I'd tell them to come up with their initial ideas and don't touch a single piece of development hardware until I said so. While they fumble around imagining all of the cool new graphical hardware tricks I'd replaced all of their next gen development kits with outdated computers along the graphical lines of the SNES /Genesis/etc. When it came time to get down to business I'd pull back the cover and say "Here ya go. Once you prove to me you can actually design an interesting game with a compelling story then I'll think about letting you transfer the idea over to something that can actually put out more than 50 polygons. Have fun."

I honestly believe a less extreme approach like this would actually benefit the gaming community greatly. Force developers to design the game from the ground up on a severely de-tuned version of the graphical engine they will eventually use and don't let them add textures, dynamics lighting or hight polygon count environments/characters until the game is actually fun.

I'd be willing to bet 50% of the "top" video game studios couldn't put out a single thing worth playing under such criteria.
Haha, I'd love to see their faces. Great idea. Today's developers do rely too heavily on simply making the best graphics possible.
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Artemio
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Post by Artemio »

Osiris wrote:
ActiveAero wrote:I'd love to be the head of some of these so called "top" game development studios just to try an experiment out on them.

I'd tell them to come up with their initial ideas and don't touch a single piece of development hardware until I said so. While they fumble around imagining all of the cool new graphical hardware tricks I'd replaced all of their next gen development kits with outdated computers along the graphical lines of the SNES /Genesis/etc. When it came time to get down to business I'd pull back the cover and say "Here ya go. Once you prove to me you can actually design an interesting game with a compelling story then I'll think about letting you transfer the idea over to something that can actually put out more than 50 polygons. Have fun."

I honestly believe a less extreme approach like this would actually benefit the gaming community greatly. Force developers to design the game from the ground up on a severely de-tuned version of the graphical engine they will eventually use and don't let them add textures, dynamics lighting or hight polygon count environments/characters until the game is actually fun.

I'd be willing to bet 50% of the "top" video game studios couldn't put out a single thing worth playing under such criteria.
Haha, I'd love to see their faces. Great idea. Today's developers do rely too heavily on simply making the best graphics possible.
Indeed. But it is not the developer's fault. I have seen that developers and designers do want to make things this way. They'd rather make a great DS game with the ideas they've had since they were studying... but the company won't finance that.

You see, when you run a business, you need to make sure the product you are investing in is going to sell. you cannot invest in development, rents, salaries, dev kits, promotion, PR and marketing if you are not sure you'll see at least a break even. But of course, why go fro the break even if you can make a couple of bucks?

You can see what happens that way. Would you absorb all the responsibility of your aproach? I mean, would you pay from your pocket the company back their investment if you don't bring back earnings? I am willing to believe you would answer yes.

The thing is, if you are willing to answer yes to such a question, it is even a better scenario for you to start your own company. If you are running the risks, you at least need to have the possibility of having some of the earnings as well.

As you can see, that is what happens. Independent developers take the risks, big companies make big bucks out of tested formulas that mainstream buys. Once in a while you get a Clover studio inside of Capcom.. but it all ends up like it has. I hope it changes, but at some level I also hope it goes on like this. I want to see the games that small studios create, as downloadable content. I must say I like my games with a case and instruction manual, I am all about collecting. But so far only the DS has been grounds for the type of work I'd like to see, and not as much as I'd like. Eventually the PSP with G&G.

That's why I buy "experimental" games whenever I can, I sympathize with the small studio.
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Marc
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Post by Marc »

But how do you make it sell? If all games look alike, you need to focus on the gameplay to make your game stand out (and therefore sell). I think that's what Aero means. As time goes on and graphics become more and more advanced, and similar, it's going to be back to gameplay like it was in the old days of gaming, like some weird cycle coming full circle.
Last edited by Marc on Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Henry Spencer
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Kojima games owned: Metal Gear (NES)
Metal Gear: Ghost Babel (GB)
Metal Gear Solid (PSX)
Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance (PS2)
Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence (PS2)
Policenauts (Saturn/PSX/3DO)
Snatcher (PC Engine/Mega CD)
Zone Of The Enders (PS2)
Zone Of The Enders 2: Special Edition (PS2)
Super Smash Bros. Brawl; it counts, right? ;P
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Post by Henry Spencer »

^ Exactly. killer7 is a great example of experimental games going well.

There are rare gems that manage to impress in both regards though as well, I think the Zelda games are a prime example; great storytelling, as it draws you into a really immersive world, whilst rhe graphics and gameplay is excellent.
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Artemio
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Post by Artemio »

Osiris wrote:But how do you make it sell? If all games look alike, you need to focus on the gameplay to make your game stand out (and therefore sell). I think that's what Aero means. As time goes on and graphics become more and more advanced, and similar, it's going to be back to gameplay like it was in the old days of gaming, like some weird cycle coming full circle.
It all depends on who you want to sell it to. I don't hear newcomers to the hobby complaining, and they'll buy every FIFA each year. If you mean selling to us, a very small percentage of the market, you are right. They need to focus on gameplay. But in order to sell to an average gamer that just bought an Xbox 360 and wasn't in the hobby for years, they don't need to make an effort.
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Post by Marc »

Really? I think even casual gamers will get tired of games once graphics start to plateau in future console generations, that is, if the gameplay doesn't pull them in because developers don't focus on it.
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Post by Artemio »

For me a casual gamer just buys the console, a couple of games and that's it. he never even discusses about games, or has a history in the hobby.

I believe that, at least here, 80% of the market belongs in that segment. And I also see here that it is "renewable", the keep coming as the older casuals leave.
From the mathematical perspective, consciousness might be regarded as a second derivative of sensation.
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87th
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Favorite Game: MetalGear 2: Solid Snake
Kojima games owned: METALGEAR SERIES
MetalGear (MSX2) [European]
MetalGear (NES) [European]
MetalGear (Famicom) [Japanese]
MetalGear 2: Solid Snake (MSX2) [Japanese]
Snake's Revenge (NES) [European]
MetalGear Solid (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Premium Pack (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Integral (PlayStation) [Japanese]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Sons Of Liberty (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance + The Document of MGS2 (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (Xbox) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PC) [European]
MetalGear AC!D (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater - Premium Pack (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear AC!D2 (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - Promo copy (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Digital Graphic Novel (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Portable Ops (PSP) [American]
MetalGear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots - Limited Edition (+ Bonus Disc, Soundtrack and 6" Old Snake Action Figure) [European]

SNATCHER SERIES
Snatcher (Mega CD) [European]
Snatcher (Saturn) [Japanese]

POLICENAUTS SERIES
Policenauts Pilot Disk (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (PlayStation) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]

ZONE OF THE ENDERS SERIES
Zone Of the Enders (PlayStation 2) [European]
Zone Of the Enders: The Second Runner - Special Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]

BOKTAI SERIES
boktai: The Sun Is In Your Hand! (Gameboy Advance) [European]
boktai 2: Solar Boy Django (Gameboy Advance) [European]

OTHER SERIES
Penguin Adventure (MSX) [European]
Kabushiki Baibai Trainer Kabutore (DS) [Japanese]

KOJIMA-RELATED GAMES
Konami Krazy Racers (Gameboy Advance) [European]
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) [American]
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Post by 87th »

Osiris wrote:Really? I think even casual gamers will get tired of games once graphics start to plateau in future console generations, that is, if the gameplay doesn't pull them in because developers don't focus on it.
That's when they stop being casual gamers.
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Henry Spencer
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Kojima games owned: Metal Gear (NES)
Metal Gear: Ghost Babel (GB)
Metal Gear Solid (PSX)
Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance (PS2)
Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence (PS2)
Policenauts (Saturn/PSX/3DO)
Snatcher (PC Engine/Mega CD)
Zone Of The Enders (PS2)
Zone Of The Enders 2: Special Edition (PS2)
Super Smash Bros. Brawl; it counts, right? ;P
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Post by Henry Spencer »

Supply and demand, I think that they will continue with graphics actually, but I can see what you mean Osiris, games would be better if they would turn full circle and go back to their original greatness (their roots) once more.
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Post by Marc »

87th wrote:
Osiris wrote:Really? I think even casual gamers will get tired of games once graphics start to plateau in future console generations, that is, if the gameplay doesn't pull them in because developers don't focus on it.
That's when they stop being casual gamers.
I was meaning that's when they stop playing games. I know many ex-casual gamer friends who have had this exact thing happen to them and now they no longer play games.
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87th
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Favorite Game: MetalGear 2: Solid Snake
Kojima games owned: METALGEAR SERIES
MetalGear (MSX2) [European]
MetalGear (NES) [European]
MetalGear (Famicom) [Japanese]
MetalGear 2: Solid Snake (MSX2) [Japanese]
Snake's Revenge (NES) [European]
MetalGear Solid (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Premium Pack (PlayStation) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Integral (PlayStation) [Japanese]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear: Ghost Babel (Gameboy Color) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Sons Of Liberty (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance + The Document of MGS2 (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (Xbox) [European]
MetalGear Solid 2: Substance (PC) [European]
MetalGear AC!D (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater - Premium Pack (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear AC!D2 (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - Promo copy (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Digital Graphic Novel (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Portable Ops (PSP) [American]
MetalGear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots - Limited Edition (+ Bonus Disc, Soundtrack and 6" Old Snake Action Figure) [European]

SNATCHER SERIES
Snatcher (Mega CD) [European]
Snatcher (Saturn) [Japanese]

POLICENAUTS SERIES
Policenauts Pilot Disk (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (3DO) [Japanese]
Policenauts (PlayStation) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]
Policenauts (Saturn) [Japanese]

ZONE OF THE ENDERS SERIES
Zone Of the Enders (PlayStation 2) [European]
Zone Of the Enders: The Second Runner - Special Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]

BOKTAI SERIES
boktai: The Sun Is In Your Hand! (Gameboy Advance) [European]
boktai 2: Solar Boy Django (Gameboy Advance) [European]

OTHER SERIES
Penguin Adventure (MSX) [European]
Kabushiki Baibai Trainer Kabutore (DS) [Japanese]

KOJIMA-RELATED GAMES
Konami Krazy Racers (Gameboy Advance) [European]
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) [American]
PSN: eighty7th
Wii Friend Code: 4890580757769739
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Post by 87th »

Osiris wrote: I was meaning that's when they stop playing games. I know many ex-casual gamer friends who have had this exact thing happen to them and now they no longer play games.
I meant it could go either way. They either look for less mainstream games, or they stop playing them altogether.
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Squallidus
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Post by Squallidus »

I really don't think much of the game. I think those people from EA were right, which would be a first, the game isn't really innovative. I don't think it is that great in other places, too.
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