Who are the Patriots?

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Nekura_Hoka
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Who are the Patriots?

Post by Nekura_Hoka »

Howdy, Nekura_Hoka here, I posted this at mgsforums.com already, but since it was inspired by Artemio's ending analysis I thought I'd post it here and see what people think of it. Please forgive the formatting if it turns out wierd in the post.
Ok, here are the essential excerpts from my new text that I've done to describe my theory on the <B>Patriots</B> source and nature. The full text can be read and downloaded on my website. http://www.geocities.com/nekurahoka/ Anyway, read at your leisure and opine if you like.

-2- The <B>Patriots</B>:
It is my beleif that the <B>Patriots</B> are a conscious pattern of information
that has spawned and functions within a network of computer systems. Much like our own minds, which could be described as a form of living
information functioning and spawned of the human brain, these systems'
frequent transfer and function in evolving information has spawned a form
of electronic mind, AI. This fulfills Kojima's intent further that
MGS2 focuses on the idea of memes.
The Document of Metal Gear Solid 2, Kojima's annotated script wrote: Codec screen

The Colonel’s voice is now clearly an electronically synthesized one,
occasionally switching to Rose’s voice. No visual of the Colonel; static
instead, with occasional insertion of the previous title’s Colonel picture.
Occasionally use a skull model.

Colonel:
Raiden, are you receiving? We’'re (The <B>Patriots</B>) still here.
Raiden:
How’s that possible!? The AI was destroyed!
Colonel:
Only GW... (Implying that there are still other sets of Arsenal and AI.
In this case, the ‘speaker’ is JFK.)
Raiden:
Who are you?
Colonel:
To begin with -- we’'re not what you'’d call - human.
The notation by Kojima after The Colonel says "only GW" was destroyed states that the Colonel itself is 'JFK'. We know that GW was an AI and that it is the initials for George Washington, first President of the United States. The Colonel is JFK according to Kojima, which most likely stands for John Fitzgerald Kennedy, another President of the United States. This gives us evidence beyond obvious voice synthesis of the Colonel that he is also an AI. Furthermore, the Colonel is, according to his own words, a member of the <B>Patriots</B>. When referring to the <B>Patriots</B>, the Colonel always says "we" and "we're", this means he is one of them. Thusly, the <B>Patriots</B> are AI.
The likely arrangement here is that the 12 member Wiseman's Commitee of the <B>Patriots</B> are 12 independent, but networked, AI systems. One of them is GW, another is JFK. The rest are probably also named after Presidents of the United States and the names probably all date from JFK to previous Presidents rather than any after JFK, but I'll explain why later in the Origins section.
Although the above is all the proof I need, there is further implication from President James Johnson's conversation with Raiden, before he is killed by Revolver Ocelot.
Sons of Liberty CODEC, Pres. James Johnson wrote: They regulate the country's various interests through controlled
presentation, staging a "drama" that is palatable to the general masses.
Can you imagine what would happen if they ceased to function?
"Ceased to function" is hardly a phrase that you would use when referring to a group of men. This implies that the <B>Patriots</B> are artificial and
"function" in a mechanical or electronic manner. This is redundant
in consideration of the Colonel's admission that the <B>Patriots</B> are inhuman,
but here it is nonetheless.
More interesting is that by understanding that the <B>Patriots</B> are AI, we now know that Solidus' target for the hydrogen bomb was not an economic one in manhattan (as suggested by President Johnson iirc), but rather the <B>Patriots</B> themselves.
Sons of Liberty CODEC script wrote: Ames:
What are you babbling about! The nuclear strike is not a
threat --
it's been the objective all along!
Raiden:
They plan to slaughter millions of people!?
Ames:
No -- a high-altitude detonation. You've heard of the Compton
Effect?
Raiden:
The total disruption of electronic equipment caused by EMMA
pulse.
Ames:
Textbook answer. Well, when an average nuclear warhead goes
off within the atmosphere, the result is an electromagnetic pulse of
up to 50 billion megawatts. The EMMA field can reach tens of
thousands of volts per meter, and most electronic equipment will
be toast in an instant.
But that isn't their aim.
What they plan to do is "liberate" Manhattan, pull it offline, and
turn it into some kind of a republic.
Hence "Sons of Liberty," I suppose.
If the <B>Patriots</B> are human at all, or even spiritual, the Compton Effect
described by Ames will have no effect on them, or even their control. A
human can still give orders orally when the power's out, but an AI cannot.
It's more evidence that the <B>Patriots</B> are electronic.

-3- The Origin of the <B>Patriots</B>:
Here's where most of the speculation on my part begins. The above is pretty well supported by the game script, but this below is a bit more theory, especially since the origin of the <B>Patriots</B> is likely in the era of
Metal Gear Solid 3.
Sons of Liberty CODEC, The Colonel wrote: Over the past two hundred years --
A kind of consciousness formed layer by layer in the crucible of the White
House. It's not unlike the way life started in the oceans four billion
years ago. The White House was our primordial soup, a base of evolution --
Miriam-Webster Dictionary, 'Crucible' wrote: 3 : a place or situation in which concentrated forces interact to cause or
influence change or development <conditioned by having grown up within the crucible of Chinatown -- Tom Wolfe>
To take the statement from JFK/The Colonel literally, he's saying that the White House functioned as the <B>Patriots</B> womb in a way. Now realistically, we aren't talking about spirits here. Rather we are talking about memes.
memecentral.com, What are Memes? wrote: Memes are the basic building blocks of our minds and culture, in the same way that genes are the basic building blocks of biological life.
You could also probably call a meme an 'idea'. The ideas that necessitated the creation of the <B>Patriots</B> originally began somewhere in the White House. What makes the <B>Patriots</B> up is the result of 200 years of politics in the US. Our philosophy as americans and our policies are the basic memes that started the <B>Patriots</B>. The memes of american philosophy in the White House functioned like genetic free bases (nucleotides) in a primordial soup. Now, the obvious question is, where could these memes actually come together in an organized and processed manner, like those free bases did inside living cells, to create a thinking entity? Without getting supernatural, the answer is: Computers.
In the 60's a nexus occured between the capability for AI, the <B>Patriots</B>, to exist and the intense desire to protect the culture of the United States. (This is pretty damn interesting since MGS3 takes place just before the emergence of the technological capability for the <B>Patriots</B> to exist and funciton as AI) The Cold War, one which threatened at any moment to destroy entire cultures, began here in the early sixties. The United States gained the need to ensure that the american way of life could survive a hot war with the Soviets if it ever happened.
In 1957, after the launch of Sputnik, ARPA (Advanced Research Projects
Agency, which later became known as DARPA) was formed and charged with the task of researching how computers could be used to maintain Command and Control for the nation.
It seems to me that the <B>Patriots</B> as a network of systems were likely
actually built functionally near this time, following (or during) the ARPA
networking project that resulted in the first government computer network which was called ARPANET. This was the beginning of what would later be called the INTERNET. The military INTERNET originally was designed as a network to interconnect centers of government administration and military centers with each other to protect the Command and Control of the United States government. The idea here was to maintain an interconnection between bases like NORAD and the President etc that could be maintained in the event of a nuclear strike on the nation. For instance, if telephone systems were knocked out in the result of an attack by the Soviets, the SAC (Strategic Air Command) could still be in contact with the President or whoever was highest
in the line of succession to give orders.
The source of the ideas that made the <B>Patriots</B> what they are, a computer network charged essentially with preserving the american way of life, fermented in the White House, but they didn't gain life, or mind- like qualities, until the original network of <B>Patriots</B> was built. This would have been in the Cold War with relatively primitive computer technology. Now, it's important to think that even though they started with primitive computers, probably using tape drives and very slow central processors, the <B>Patriots</B> would grow over time, just like us.
Even though the human body is constantly replacing its cells, even those of your brain, we remain essentially the same person we were before the change. The <B>Patriots</B> could also grow in the same manner, as new technology is invented, old computers in the network would have been replaced with newer ones, but in the interest continuity the information on the old computer would have been preserved and transfered to the new system. Thusly, the information that makes up GW or JFK as an AI or a mind would still remain, but they would be able to process, to think, faster. Communication would also improve over time. Very much like the growth of a human baby into a mature adult, the <B>Patriots</B> would grow from slow systems barely able to communicate with each other, to efficient and intelligent AI systems bent on controlling the world to fulfill, in their own way, every living thing's instinctual imperative: survive.
Emma also indicates that the <B>Patriots</B> have certain capabilities, but can
also improve them with a new host system. This is another quote that very cleverly has a double meaning. The player first going through the game may merely assume that she is merely talking about a "data processing system" that the <B>Patriots</B> own or control ("their"), rather than it as a part of one of the Committee's very being.
Sons of Liberty CODEC, Emma wrote: Now, look at it like this... political scandal, corporate corruption...
up until now, the <B>Patriots</B> have managed to keep a lid on these and other
self-serving events. But with their existing data processing system, they
are no longer able to effectively control the flow of information
generated at the individual level. With the newly created system, they can fully regulate digital information.
Emma's talking about GW's information filtering capability. Since we know now that the <B>Patriots</B> themselves are AI, Emma appears in this context to be referring to the current computing capability of the <B>Patriots</B> not being up to the task of filtering out the desired information to maintain control of ideas and keep their stranglehold of power.
Now, you might remember when I was writing about the names (GW and JFK) that they would likely not have names newer than JFKs. The reason for this is that the project origin is likely in the 60's and thusly names for the systems that made up the original network nodes would have been selected from Presidents that were in office previous to the inception of the project plan.
Now, why call them the <B>Patriots</B>? Well, again, this is a network originally
responsible for preserving the american ideal, our way of life. Thusly they
are in their own way, <B>Patriots</B>.
Another question, why are they sometimes known as the
La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo? Well, as I understand it this is actually linked to how children learn english in some areas of east asia. Originally La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo is used to teach children the english vowels. Remember that most east asian languages are essentally syllable-based rather than alphabet-based like english. This results in the need to create a basic syllable for children to pronounce to learn the sounds of our alphabet. Hence La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo.
Now, this relates to the <B>Patriots</B> in that one of these nations (North Korea if I remember right) outlawed the phrase La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo for this, probably due to some resentment towards the capitalist west or some similar reason. It's designed for east asians who know that this happend to remember the idea that a piece of language itself can be omitted and outlawed by a powerful government or other controlling entity. It's cultural and societal control through the elimination of information. Very appropriate, given the <B>Patriots</B>' desire to eliminate any and all information concerning their existence and names.

Well, that's it for now. Is there anything about the <B>Patriots</B> I didn't cover? I'm planning on expanding this as I think of things or notice more details in the game. Thanks for reading!
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Post by Artemio »

Nekura_Hoka I am glad you ended up understanding the same thing I did, though there is one thing I don't quite agree with. You keep calling them an AI in the first part of the text. Well, they could not be an AI in that sense, at least not in the Meme theory. If they are derived from memes, they are a conscious being... if they are man made, they are AI (there is no definition of AI that is the standard, but none of the actual definitions taught at college would fit that description).

The simlpe fact they are in a medium such as computers (and I would rather say the net of information, not a specific computer they do say that they exist in specific neural networks.. but these networs they refer are only the "Arsenal Gears" and we do know that the <B>Patriots</B> do exist from way before arsenal gear). So, they simply are using those specific neural networks as ways of communicating. Recall that they were built for the S3 plan, and the <B>Patriots</B> are simple using these as resources. A la-li-lu-le-lo was not killed by the virus, if you follow this line of thought that is not contradictory with memes.


As I say it is merely something conceptual, even gramatical if you want...

I am glad you ended up with the very same conclusions that I did, and that drove me to write the ending analysis. It is good to watch it explained in somebody else's words.
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Post by Painaxl »

Very interesting, Nekura_Hoka. Although it makes many similar points to Artemio's, I think it makes some excellent points on it's own.

On a similar front, I only sort of understand the censoring of the word "<B>Patriots</B>" in the Metal Gear universe. If it's censored, how come we ever hear it (when Solidus or Raiden say it)?


EDIT: I just noticed the board effect. Unbelievably cool, Snatcher.
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Post by Artemio »

Even though the human body is constantly replacing its cells, even those of your brain, we remain essentially the same person we were before the change. The la li lu le lo could also grow in the same manner, as new technology is invented, old computers in the network would have been replaced with newer ones, but in the interest continuity the information on the old computer would have been preserved and transfered to the new system. Thusly, the information that makes up GW or JFK as an AI or a mind would still remain, but they would be able to process, to think, faster. Communication would also improve over time. Very much like the growth of a human baby into a mature adult, the la li lu le lo would grow from slow systems barely able to communicate with each other, to efficient and intelligent AI systems bent on controlling the world to fulfill, in their own way, every living thing's instinctual imperative: survive.
This points me directly to the following phrase by Ray Kurzweil, perhaps you could use that one:
"If I ask the question, 'Who am I?' I could conclude that, perhaps I am this stuff here, i.e., the ordered and chaotic collection of molecules that comprise my body and brain.

However, the specific set of particles that comprise my body and brain are completely different from the atoms and molecules than comprised me only a short while (on the order of weeks) ago. We know that most of our cells are turned over in a matter of weeks. Even those that persist longer (e.g., neurons) nonetheless change their component molecules in a matter of weeks.

So I am a completely different set of stuff than I was a month ago. All that persists is the pattern of organization of that stuff. The pattern changes also, but slowly and in a continuum from my past self. From this perspective I am rather like the pattern that water makes in a stream as it rushes past the rocks in its path. The actual molecules (of water) change every millisecond, but the pattern persists for hours or even years. "
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Post by Artemio »

Painaxl wrote:EDIT: I just noticed the board effect. Unbelievably cool, Snatcher.
=) (I thought It would never be noticed)


By the way Nekura_Hoka, I'll make a link when you feel it is finished, since it is a dfferent point of view of the same ideas and some peopl eprefer to read something more precise.

Whenever I talk or write I love putting my peers in the same position I have, so I *might* spend too much time in preamble and setting the "scene" =P
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Post by Nekura_Hoka »

Thanks, feel free to do so. I'm not sure what else I'll add to be honest.

I was just using AI as a more encompasing term to lump the <B>Patriots</B> into. I don't think there is a word really invented yet to describe what they are in my view. Just like you could say: all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. You could also say: all the <B>Patriots</B> are AI, but not all AI are the <B>Patriots</B> (or conscious entities). In other words, to say that the <B>Patriots</B> are conscious is not to say that they are not AI.

I think the <B>Patriots</B> fit with being dubbed 'artificial' since humans, whether intentionally or not, did create them (their memes at the very minimum) and they are certainly intelligent (capable of learning). So at a minimum they are AI, but they are more than just AI becuase they appear to be conscious.

I do agree that the net could be functioning as a medium for them, but they still need to at least partially or wholly reside in a computer for them to be processed. I tried to put that across to some extent, but I should probably elaborate. An example might be an application which is on the internet. The application is useless unless it is run, processed, on whatever computer or set of computers it resides on.

I noticed the script too after I posted the thread, lol I think that's pretty ingenious.
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Nekura_Hoka wrote:It seems to me that the la li lu le lo as a network of systems were likely actually built functionally near this time, following (or during) the ARPA
networking project that resulted in the first government computer network which was called ARPANET. This was the beginning of what would later be called the INTERNET. The military INTERNET originally was designed as a network to interconnect centers of government administration and military centers with each other to protect the Command and Control of the United States government.
You contradict yourself here, as you cleverly relate the production of the la-li-lu-le-lo with the propagation of linked computer systems across the USA, when you write
Nekura_Hoka wrote: More interesting is that by understanding that the la li lu le lo are AI, we now know that Solidus' target for the hydrogen bomb was not an economic one in manhattan (as suggested by President Johnson iirc), but rather the la li lu le lo themselves.
I think it's a little bit of an underestimation of the la-li-lu-le-lo to presume that they/it would 'put all their eggs in one basket' as it were and base themselves entirely in the NYSE area of Manhattan. Besides, if they are consciousness that spawned from computers, surely they can simply flit between computers with ease (although the idea of the "AI" 'occupying' a computer is a particularly human one, trying to place the idea of another [rival] consciousness at vulnerability. If the consciousness indeed does 'live' in computers, to say it is in one computer is like saying that when you think of a pain in your leg, your whole consciousness is at that time located in the leg).

Similarly, it doesn't follow narrative conventions for a character to leave his motives hidden as you suggest Solidus does (in not telling us that his target is the la-li-lu-le-lo, not the NYSE). I think it is too convoluted to draw from it that Solidus was secretly planning on destroying them - the 'Bond villain always reveals his plan' is a cliche I'd like to avoid, but I think it fits. Solidus gains nothing in not telling Jack his true motives before the two duel to the death.
Last edited by Jonathan Ingram on Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Artemio »

Nekura_Hoka wrote:Thanks, feel free to do so. I'm not sure what else I'll add to be honest.
Cool, thanks
I was just using AI as a more encompasing term to lump the <B>la li lu le lo</B> into. I don't think there is a word really invented yet to describe what they are in my view. Just like you could say: all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. You could also say: all the <B>la li lu le lo</B> are AI, but not all AI are the <B>la li lu le lo</B> (or conscious entities). In other words, to say that the <B>la li lu le lo</B> are conscious is not to say that they are not AI.

I think the <B>la li lu le lo</B> fit with being dubbed 'artificial' since humans, whether intentionally or not, did create them (their memes at the very minimum) and they are certainly intelligent (capable of learning). So at a minimum they are AI, but they are more than just AI becuase they appear to be conscious.
What I mainly refer is that in computer science an AI is merely a program built to appear intelligent (If you have tried coding something, you'll know what I mean.. computers are just plain dull). As dedfined by my teacher of AI at college: "AI is the science of making people believe that computers behave like they do in movies".
I do agree that the net could be functioning as a medium for them, but they still need to at least partially or wholly reside in a computer for them to be processed. I tried to put that across to some extent, but I should probably elaborate. An example might be an application which is on the internet. The application is useless unless it is run, processed, on whatever computer or set of computers it resides on.
Do you really belive that information is just in one computer? Just see what happens with your text above.. or with my ending analysis, or with "dreaming in an empty room"...

It is not about the text, it is about the ideas they have expanded over the net. In forums, in sites, as faqs, in html form and the minds of people, the HDD of those people.. that is the way information propagates, and in which such memes travel in a digital medium.

There are backups now in your machine and in mine.... in your mind and in mine. And it goes beyond simple digital information.

The game's point is "chenge people's values and they'll believe they are doing what they want, while they are doing our will". Propaganda...

Obviously it is not completely coherent within, but it is hinting at those possibilities. MGS2 was released unfinished and rushed, unfortunately..

(BTW, I am really glad that finally some of these themes have arised here at the forums) *grin*
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Post by Nekura_Hoka »

I didn't imply that all the <B>Patriots</B> were in manhattan. I was merely saying that the compton effect would be relevant to target their influence because they are electronic in nature. I think you read something that wasn't there, blame the <B>Patriots</B> lol

As to the issue of AI, I'm referring to the truest definition of AI in that it is a man-made device which is capable of learning. What you talk about in terms of something designed to appear intelligent would actually be called an automaton. I'm trying to define these things by what they actually are, not by what they are intended to appear to be which is illusory.

I don't think we're contradicting ourselves here, just saying the same things in different ways.
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Post by Artemio »

Nekura_Hoka wrote:I don't think we're contradicting ourselves here, just saying the same things in different ways.
That's why I said it was merely gramatical =)
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Post by Nekura_Hoka »

Yeah I saw that you said that, I just thought I needed to elaborate some becuase of that. ;D

I think I might add some information about various types of thinking and non-thinking machines. Its a subject I've been interested in (and studied to some degree) for many years now.

Oh and did you know that the original Metal Gear appears to be unfinished in some respect? There are 155 messages in the original Japanese gameplay, but the code has an additional 4 messages addressed but not scripted (omitted). Pretty interesting, not even the first game was entirely what it was originally intended.
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Nekura_Hoka wrote:I didn't imply that all the la li lu le lo were in manhattan. I was merely saying that the compton effect would be relevant to target their influence because they are electronic in nature. I think you read something that wasn't there, blame the la li lu le lo lol
Nekura_Hoka wrote: More interesting is that by understanding that the la li lu le lo are AI, we now know that Solidus' target for the hydrogen bomb was not an economic one in manhattan (as suggested by President Johnson iirc), but rather the la li lu le lo themselves.
If they aren't all in Manhattan, why would the "target for the hydrogen bomb...[be]....the <B>Patriots</B> themselves."? And besides - all this goes on the assumption that Solidus actually knows that the <B>Patriots</B> are "electronic". If he knew this, why would he want to find out the <B>Patriots</B>' names? (As is his goal - "The clues to the <B>Patriots</B> inside GW have been erased, but there are other traces. Inside YOU.") Solidus is still following the idea that he can find out who they are, which of course, is impossible. Now, the player is of course let in on the secret that the <B>Patriots</B> are not real people, but some other "kind of consciousness formed layer by layer in the crucible of the White House." when the 'colonel' tells this to Jack - but the key thing is that they tell Jack, and not Solidus - Solidus must continue to believe that he can find their identities so that he will be killed by Jack (which is the [only] inevitable outcome). Also, you state (of Solidus' plan to pull Manhattan "offline") "It's more evidence that <B>Patriots</B> are electronic". I think that the real implication is that the extent of their control is electronic, not the <B>Patriots</B> themselves.
Nekura_Hoka wrote: This gives us evidence beyond obvious voice synthesis of the Colonel that he is also an AI. Furthermore, the Colonel is, according to his own words, a member of the la li lu le lo. When referring to the la li lu le lo, the Colonel always says "we" and "we're", this means he is one of them. Thusly, the la li lu le lo are AI.
The colonel does speak of the <B>Patriots</B> in the first person plural. This does not however mean that he is one of them. The <B>Patriots</B> could simply be using him as a mouthpiece for their own words. They have used the Colonel so far as a character that Jack trusts, there is no reason to abandon this facade now - but, subtly Kojima does. By flickering between the Colonel's normal polygon model and a 'skull' face, we are told that this 'Colonel' has a form that can change, thus implying he is in fact, not a real person. The idea that he is one of the <B>Patriots</B>, namely 'JFK' as you say, is flawed in that we are told by Otacon that it is likely Jack has been talking to an AI, fabricated from his own presumptions and the AI's input. Therefore we can deduce that in fact, the Colonel is just a program, an AI in the sense of "making a machine behave in ways that would be called intelligent if a human were so behaving." (J. McCarthy)

Also, you suggest that GW, the system for information filtering housed with Arsenal Gear, is in fact a new 'system' that the <B>Patriots</B> will occupy in order to be capable of better information filtering (like an improving body, is the analogy you use). This is at odds with your previous relation of the name 'GW' with one of the 12 'networked AIs' that make up the <B>Patriots</B> - as you now are saying that they have created a new one with this name.
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Post by Artemio »

Nekura_Hoka wrote:As to the issue of AI, I'm referring to the truest definition of AI in that it is a man-made device which is capable of learning. What you talk about in terms of something designed to appear intelligent would actually be called an automaton.
There is one thing wrong here.... All the classical definitions of AI (at least the ones I know) don't comply to that, neither what is taught in doing AI, nor AI books. What they teach you is how to get computer programs to "learn" (storing data and ways to retrieve it in context) and specific algoriithms that do interesting mathematics to behave in patterns similar to thse found in nature (neural networks and Genetic Algorithms for instance).

Problem is, we don't understand how ourselves are intelligent, we cannpt teach a machine how to be so unless we simlpy copy ourselves....

Maybe the theory I learnt is a little rusty, and I've not kept quite up to date in the matter.. but maybe what you refer to mainly is an intelligent being in the definition of cognitive science, not an AI in terms of Computer Science. It is more like the AI commonly defined in SF.

What you might be refering os to strong AI, which are: "Non-human-like AI, in which the computer program develops a totally non-human sentience, and a non-human way of thinking and reasoning."

The main problem here in defining them as AI is that they weren't made on purpose.. they sprung out of information and systems (probably), it would be like saying that we create bacteria....

I also believe there are more subjects of artificial life, than of AI involved.
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Post by Nekura_Hoka »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:If they aren't all in Manhattan, why would the "target for the hydrogen bomb...[be]....the <B>la li lu le lo</B> themselves."? And besides - all this goes on the assumption that Solidus actually knows that the <B>la li lu le lo</B> are "electronic".
You've got a good point about Solidus knowing or not knowing about the non-human nature of the <B>Patriots</B>. However, you seem to be missing the parsing on the issue of how many members of the <B>Patriots</B> I was thinking were in manhattan. I don't know how few or how many so I defaulted to referring to the <B>Patriots</B> in plurality. Here are the possibilities: there are a number of <B>Patriots</B> (wisemen's committee) equal to a single number valued from 0 to 12. Fair enough? I know what I wrote and perhaps it was too general for what I meant to communicate with it. I should be more specific, but I thought the point was made well enough. Your best point is on whether Solidus knows that the <B>Patriots</B> are inhuman, and you are right there is good information indicating that he does not.
Jonathan Ingram wrote:The colonel does speak of the <B>la li lu le lo</B> in the first person plural. This does not however mean that he is one of them. The <B>la li lu le lo</B> could simply be using him as a mouthpiece for their own words.
Thats true, but it you are still communicating with the <B>Patriots</B>. Even if the Colonel is a mouthpiece it is still the <B>Patriots</B> controlling him to say that they, the <B>Patriots</B>, are not human. Whether or not JFK/Colonel is a la-li-lu-le-lo only determines definitively what alternative to humanity that the <B>Patriots</B> are. I still think its fairly reasonable to go with the explanation that they are electronic rather than spiritual, but being a video game there are no guarantees. In the event that the Colonel is just a mouthpiece and Kojima was talking about that mouthpiece being called JFK, then my theory on the naming scheme is wrong as well, certainly.
Jonathan Ingram wrote:Also, you suggest that GW, the system for information filtering housed with Arsenal Gear, is in fact a new 'system' that the <B>la li lu le lo</B> will occupy in order to be capable of better information filtering (like an improving body, is the analogy you use). This is at odds with your previous relation of the name 'GW' with one of the 12 'networked AIs' that make up the <B>la li lu le lo</B> - as you now are saying that they have created a new one with this name.
A new body, but not a new entity. My supposition is that the entities that are the <B>Patriots</B> require computers, but are not incapable of moving between them. For example, GW the meme-entity (if that term works for us) may have existed for 40 years or something essentially like a symbiote with computer technology as its host (the computer providing the body hardware to allow the entity to process and the la-li-lu-le-lo controlling the computer hardware operatively, giving it usefulness). This entity could easily have transferred itself and been executed in the neural network hardware contained within Arsenal Gear. That was the point of my 'improving body' analogy, to suppose that the <B>Patriots</B> as entities could continue to function while computer technology is constantly being replaced. So what I said was actually that a new host for an existing la-li-lu-le-lo has been created within Arsenal Gear. I said nothing of a new la-li-lu-le-lo.

To Snatcher, I'm thinking of the word-based definition of it, which you are probably right has more to do with cognitive science. (psychology is where I understand intelligence from) Computer science has sort of mangled the definition of artificial intelligence (especially so when refering to game programming, for instance), but there are numerous applications in robotics now that are using actual learning capability (real AI in cognitive terms, if you like) to allow robots to learn through trial-and-error how to navigate rooms and things of that sort.

It seems to me that something need not have been purposefully made in order for it to be man-made and thus artificial. We as humans are the source of the memes that make up the <B>Patriots</B> (we created the memes. those memes couldn't have existed without minds to create and store them), whether we meant for the memes to form this 'information life' is irrelevant . To my thinking, accidentally or purposefully created doesn't change the fact that they were created by us.
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Post by Snake Plissken »

I once thought the la le lu le lo lived next to me, but it just happened to be french performers :cry:
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Post by Artemio »

Nekura_Hoka wrote:I still think its fairly reasonable to go with the explanation that they are electronic rather than spiritual, but being a video game there are no guarantees.
I do believe they are neither of those, but a combination. I believe they require the society as we require the cells of a brain....

Now regarding artificial and "natural". I've always believed that the word "artificial" is "artificial", if you knwo what I mean.

After all, man is natural.. isn't he? And it is only natural for man to try not being part of nature....
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Post by Ninja Kurosai »

Where as we view ourselves as being able to think and choose on our own free will, this could not be the case. Our brain could be similar to an AI program, and therefore programmed to only do so much, and limit different things. Everyday that we contemplate things, this molds our Sub-concious, which affects our concious in return, forming a sort of base in which we interact. For example, someone who is raised to never steal, after being subjected to many things that would change his opinion, over time would be clouded by these and a possibility that this could alter other forms of his personality simoltaneously(sp) and this person would most likely steal. After getting away with it, it becomes an Algorithm to his mind, and he needs to do it over and over, not becuase he becomes addicted to it, but because his mind drives him to because of this pattern. (Buddhists believe that this is the one reason for suffering in the world, that we are clouded by this and affects our ability to see clearly. "For instance, a mirror could be clear, or dirty. If dirty, it can be cleaned and retain its clearness.") I hope this makes sense... :)
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Post by Artemio »

I understand your point Ninja Kurosai, and it is obviously an unsolvable one currently. We enter the domain of soul vs machine. And in either, we enter the free will vs mechanical conduct/destiny inside of either.

Although the problem is that that discussion goes too far waway from the cutrrent topic, since it is vast.

A new theem regarding this disussion and vbeliefs around that would be necessary,.. though we wuold end with nothing but interesting and different points of view that are but beliefs, logical conclusions to oneself and models of reality and the world... but isn't that everything that humans create?

=P

OK, way too off topic.. better close this line of discussion and go ahead with simple AI, and intelligent beings =P

EDIT:

There is also another factor that moidel doesn't account for, and is the possibility of re programming ourselves based on the enviroment.. of course it can be argued that that process is itself coded too, but it is that self reference and feedback (the model of ourselves in ourselves, and of the full enviroment), which makes us what we call sentient and thus, 'intelligent'.
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Post by Nekura_Hoka »

Snatcher wrote:Now regarding artificial and "natural". I've always believed that the word "artificial" is "artificial", if you knwo what I mean.
Actually, I agree completely. How can nature produce the unnatural? It's like trying to grow oranges from apples or some similar scenario. Of course, I still use the 'artificial' term since its easier to use the common understanding than to get into a long discourse involving the definition of words that probably aren't critical to the discussion. (If we all had different ideas of what a huge number of words meant, we'd have to include a lexicon preamble to every statement lol)
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Post by Artemio »

Nekura_Hoka wrote:
Snatcher wrote: (If we all had different ideas of what a huge number of words meant, we'd have to include a lexicon preamble to every statement lol)
Quite true, though I considered it appropiate here... in terms of what is artificial and what is not, in terms of how can we say that we are not artficial nowadays that we change our genes and use medicine? of course we are under the strict definition...

Anyway, it is mainly a gramatical problem and the terms that are defined for common use and what is understood as we have both stated before.

The real questions underneath do arise though, should we believe these guys that say they've been around for a 100 years? If so, then we must asume that they are not related to computers but to culture and society mainly. If we don't believe them, there is still enough evidence to support they are not strictly related to machines to survive ...
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Post by Rolman »

I'm glad this discussion finally hit the forums. Snatcher and I have talked about this a little bit over the time, but to stay true to the MGS2 mantra, I'd rather have it documented, stored, preserved and then evolved in a digital medium, instead of just sharing memes in the "natural", analog way. The timing is most unfortunate (MGS3), but we'll all be playing it so I don't expect to lag too far behind ;)

Regarding to why the la li lu le lo is spelled that way, I'd like to add some more of its roots. The order of the vowels (a, i, u, e, o) is the one used in the japanese language and the letter "L" (or its phoneme) doesn't really exist in japanese. Start making your own conclusions about that =)

About the bomb exploding in the NY area and the real target being to fry all electronic equipment (and not the people), I think it really gets in line with the overall MGS theme and don't see it merely as a silly contradiction:

As it's been said already, the la li lu le lo are not contained solely inside the system within Arsenal Gear and thus destroying/disabling it would not kill them. The point is that it would severely limit their meme splicing/synthesis capabilities, since it's known that with their current level of data processing they can't keep up with the amount of information created at the individual level in this new digital era.

To really kill the la li lu le lo would require the same thing as killing a specific set of genes from a given pool, that is either killing all the individuals carrying them or having them replaced with new ones through several methods, including natural selection, genetic engineering or selective breeding. Translate that to memes and it means changing the ideology of all the people carrying a specific set of values, in this case the "american" way of thinking using methods such as marketing, politics, propaganda, fashion, and so forth.

Then it gets interesting, because there's one BIG catch in the analogy... Supposedly, the electromagnetic pulse would leave memes up to natural selection, because no one would be capable of shaping the insane amount of information in an artificial way unless a new powerful entity such as the Arsenal Gear's systems would be created. But then again, having memes passed through a digital (and therefore, artificial) medium tends to preserve everything intact, and that goes directly against the "survival of the fittest" process of natural selection. Rose clearly gets into the subject when she talks about controlling information in order to provide context to it.

So we end up not with a contradiction, but a dilemma with regards to the digital era, on how and what to pass on to our children, on how the past shapes the future. It all comes full circle if we remember how natural a situation is for the human mind to have a dilemma (as opposed to AIs or machines).
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Rolman wrote:But then again, having memes passed through a digital (and therefore, artificial) medium tends to preserve everything intact, and that goes directly against the "survival of the fittest" process of natural selection. Rose clearly gets into the subject when she talks about controlling information in order to provide context to it.
Indeed, it does contradict the 'natural selection' element, but I don't believe that is the <B>Patriots</B>'s ultimate goal. They are the ones that will be culling information, deciding what will survive. They are not really interested in any 'natural selection', the 'natural selection' you speak of is one that would presumably be initiated by Solidus, it is his goal for humans to be 'free to decide' what they pass on. So in fact, I there isn't a dilemma in this instance as you are looking at opposing forces, the <B>Patriots</B> and Solidus, one for 'natural selection', one for simply 'selection'.
Nekura_Hoka wrote: You've got a good point about Solidus knowing or not knowing about the non-human nature of the la li lu le lo. However, you seem to be missing the parsing on the issue of how many members of the la li lu le lo I was thinking were in manhattan. I don't know how few or how many so I defaulted to referring to the la li lu le lo in plurality. Here are the possibilities: there are a number of la li lu le lo (wisemen's committee) equal to a single number valued from 0 to 12. Fair enough? I know what I wrote and perhaps it was too general for what I meant to communicate with it. I should be more specific, but I thought the point was made well enough. Your best point is on whether Solidus knows that the la li lu le lo are inhuman, and you are right there is good information indicating that he does not.
Please, please please, understand that I know you didn't mean that all of them were in Manhattan. The real point I was making by bringing that fact up is that since you have yourself admitted they weren't all there, you then cannot use that argument (that Solidus planned on destroying them with the Compton effect) to provide 'evidence' that they are indeed electronic. Your argument defeats itself. Similarly, when you say "you are still communicating with the <B>Patriots</B>", that is only if your argument is presumed to be true. Why can the Colonel not be an independent program designed speccifically for the manipulation of and controlling of Jack? It is programmed with all the knowledge needed to manipulate him, including 'biographical' details of the <B>Patriots</B>'s beginnings.

So, since the Colonel could be simply an AI (in Snatcher's sense, a machine made to appear intelligent, and not a conscious being), and Solidus can be shown to have not known that the <B>Patriots</B> were electronic, that undermines two of your main arguments that they are indeed electronic. The other of your arguments, when Johnson says "ceased to function" remains. However, that phrase is often used in connection with military units, or other organisations.

I haven't set out just to discredit your theory here, just to highlight to you that you need better evidence to back it up, and your current arguments are so full of holes that it quite simply doesn't hold water. This is because the rest of your 'history' of the <B>Patriots</B> is simply supposition, and without relating it to the 'text' that is MGS2, cannot really have any significance other than that of one of many theories about the <B>Patriots</B>'s origin (which is, in my opinion, diverting from the real themes and issues of MGS2 and simply isn't too important).
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Post by Nekura_Hoka »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:Please, please please, understand that I know you didn't mean that all of them were in Manhattan. The real point I was making by bringing that fact up is that since you have yourself admitted they weren't all there, you then cannot use that argument (that Solidus planned on destroying them with the Compton effect) to provide 'evidence' that they are indeed electronic.
I can make that argument if even one of them is in manhattan, thats my point. I already conceded your issue that Solidus may not have known about the <B>Patriots</B> being electronic.
Jonathan Ingram wrote:Similarly, when you say "you are still communicating with the <B>la li lu le lo</B>", that is only if your argument is presumed to be true. Why can the Colonel not be an independent program designed speccifically for the manipulation of and controlling of Jack? It is programmed with all the knowledge needed to manipulate him, including 'biographical' details of the <B>la li lu le lo</B>'s beginnings.
Indeed he could be an independent program. You, however, suggested that he was a mouthpiece. If it was a mouthpiece, then it was the <B>Patriots</B> who were talking through him. Thats why 'we' and 'we're' were used, like I said. Either case, mouthpiece or la-li-lu-le-lo himself, your original suggestion still meant a la-li-lu-le-lo was talking to Raiden. With your new suggestion just now that the Colonel may be an independent AI and not associated with the <B>Patriots</B> at all then, yes, Raiden would not be taking to the <B>Patriots</B>. In that case all discussion of the ending at all is useless becuase ALL information may as well then be suspect. If that's your argument that we don't really know what's going on, then I agree with you, but I was taking the assumption that what was being said was true. I suggested all this as a theory and concede that it may be incorrect.
Jonathan Ingram wrote:This is because the rest of your 'history' of the <B>la li lu le lo</B> is simply supposition, and without relating it to the 'text' that is MGS2, cannot really have any significance other than that of one of many theories about the <B>la li lu le lo</B>'s origin (which is, in my opinion, diverting from the real themes and issues of MGS2 and simply isn't too important).
I didn't suggest it wasn't supposition. Remember, this is a theory, just a suggestiuon of what the <B>Patriots</B> could be. You disagree, fine, disagree. You've certainly put a lot of effort talking about something you consider a diversion. If you'd rather talk about the ending analysis then make a thread for that. Artemio already did a good job with that, so I decided to focus on the <B>Patriots</B> themselves rather than repeating him entirely. A discussion on the <B>Patriots</B> has started up pretty well and that was my real goal.
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Nekura_Hoka wrote: You, however, suggested that he was a mouthpiece. If it was a mouthpiece, then it was the la li lu le lo who were talking through him. Thats why 'we' and 'we're' were used, like I said. Either case, mouthpiece or La li lu le lo himself, your original suggestion still meant a La li lu le lo was talking to Raiden. With your new suggestion just now that the Colonel may be an independent AI and not associated with the la li lu le lo at all then, yes, Raiden would not be taking to the la li lu le lo.
When I said mouthpiece, I meant that he was simply a voice to their thoughts. I didn't mean that they were talking through him directly, but that their thoughts, or more precisely, what they want Jack to hear, is already programmed within that AI, so my 'new suggestion' is actually the same as my first. But because Jack is speaking with this (or these, assuming Rose is also one) AI doesn't mean that all information is "suspect". The Colonel was simply designed to reveal the correct information to Jack at the right times. The information itself has come from the <B>Patriots</B>. And even if it hasn't, that doesn't mean it is automatically "suspect" - if a pariot was talking to Jack, he could just as easily lie as the machine could have incorrect information.
Nekura_Hoka wrote: You've certainly put a lot of effort talking about something you consider a diversion
Can't you see that the reason I put this much effort in is to try and help you see that it is only a diversion? In Frankenstein we are not told how it is that Frankenstein brings his monster to life, because it isn't important - what is important is what the monster does and how Frankenstein reacts. Similarly, it is what the <B>Patriots</B> are trying to do, and how Jack reacts that are key in MGS2. You can certainly link memes and AI and all sorts of pseudo-science to the creation of the <B>Patriots</B>, but I think it detracts from the real idea of memes in MGS2, that we should be passing on the right ones, or choosing the right ones to retain.
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Post by Artemio »

Well, I think that we must stablish the assumptions (since we need to create CONTEXT, oh the irony):

1) What was said to Raiden is true under the light that he doesn't matter.
2) The <B>Patriots</B> are a sentient life-form that evolved from (human (usa)) culture
3) Their purpose to create Arsenal gear is to test their S3 system, a system to control and select memes that are supposed to be 'good' for the human race, since natural selection cannot happen in the current niformation flow where every piece is kept.

And just one more comment, we are not attacking you or your work in a personal level, just in a way that you can restructure the thing and make it even better. I believe that the audience of this forums seeks greater understanding of many such themes, and that stuff can be seen under different lights.
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