How do you think MGS3's storyline fares to MGS2?

Discussion related to the most well-known series by Kojima. News, debate and any related discussions are welcome. IMPORTANT Any topics related to MGS4 should temporarily go in the appropriate forum. Please keep spoilers out of signatures too.
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Missing
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How do you think MGS3's storyline fares to MGS2?

Post by Missing »

Spoilers seem likely in this kind of discussion. I felt prompted to bring it up based on a debate over on GameFAQs, as well as the comments from one of those board's regulars, a piece of shit that goes by the name of Lionhart. I'd like to hear fellow Junker member's opinions on the matter, knowing that you're all pretty fair-minded towards these kinds of discussions. So did any of you really think MGS3's storyline was dumbed down in contrast to MGS2? This seems to be the most constant criticism from fans who believe Kojima was somehow simplifying the franchise's roots after MGS2's convoluted narrative was met with much disdain.

I for one am not so impressed by the endless ramblings of political and technical jargon he managed to squeeze into the game, and am more impressed by his ability to string together a cohesive narrative. For that I don't think Kojima can top MGS1, as it still retains its pitch-perfect mixture of both gameplay and storytelling. It remains suspensefully paced throughout and never feels as uneven as either MGS2 or 3 often do.

However, I still appreciate and enjoy both of those game's qualities despite their flaws, and in the case of MGS3, I admire how close Kojima came to duplicating MGS1's formula. He didn't simply dumb down everything that was met with criticism in MGS2, as much as he tried to pace the storyline so that there were fewer loose ends and less unnecessary side-stories, and so the game's conclusion wouldn't just be a jumble of absurd plot twists that only truly make sense when they've been broken down by fanatics online (no offense to you, Artemio).

Admittedly, MGS3 is a much smaller story than MGS2, revolving around fewer characters and a more tangible premise, but no one should be led to believe the story is any way simplified in contrast to the sprawling narratives this franchise is best known for. I do think the main fault of MGS3's storyline is that nothing really comes together until those final few moments of the game, which means a lot of earlier scenes are somewhat slow and uninteresting, as well as fairly pointless to the story's conclusion when you consider all the characters and situations Kojima lingers on don't make much of a difference overall. But then, that isn't so much of a stretch from MGS2.

Now the game doesn't try as hard to tax the player's brain with that final revelation that puts everything before it into perspective. It asks that you be more emotionally involved in the characters and situations, which may be difficult for some people. Is this any reason to believe the game is simplified? I suppose for some it is. But being told in a very obvious nod to the real world that I've just been playing a simulation all along isn't something that gets me all hysterical either.

Anyway, I value other's opinions in this discussion more than my own.
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Post by Artemio »

I believe both things. I believe he really had to dumb it down, and remove so much dialog and put it into the codec as optional for the ones who liked those tons of detail (like myself). He had to "dumb" it with a hollywood-like script, but it turned out to be a great one.

The thing is. I loved MGS because it had as much detail as Snatcher. Little things put here and there, tons of attention to detail, great character development... a very well rounded and believable world.

It was on the same line, but added action to it as well as 3d graphics. MGS2 just improved on the same line for my tastes... when I saw how it was received, I had to write that thing when I found myself sick for a full week at home.

Unfortunately the games were not seen as such by the mainstream. it was an action game for them, not an adventure game as I saw it. I also believe that Kojima saw it as an adventure game with very detailed action mini games in between.

MGS3 turns it to an action game with story... in a balance similar to what you describe , but with a different focus. A different target audience but still pleasing guys like myself that looked for all that text and dialog. Great balance that could please him as a creator, mainstream players and hardcore fans.

I agree that I was excited to see video games express ideas that I had been reading about. I was really happy that they could be used in such a way. But the reality is that people play them, mostly, for entertainment value alone. If it is not a ready to digest thing, it will not be for the mainstream market. That is for sure. And both points are valid, just liek in the movie world. there can be movies that you love because how they made you forget about everything and let you have mindless fun, there are some that will be loved by what they made you think and feel and tons more that have their own reasons in between. And tehy are all valid.

MGS2 was expected to be a terrific action game that would bring a heavenly experience to the PS2. And it tried being an arty movie. That was its problem.

I do believe MGS3 is a better experience as a game. But I also respect and cherish MGS2 for all that it tried to bring to the table, trying to break the fourth wall in a way that only a videogame could. After all, it could only be done once, right?
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Post by The Prince II »

I do think MGS2's is vastly superior to MGS3's. It has clearly been dumbed down after the sharp fan reaction to Raiden and the complicated MGS2 plot. MGS3 (now) seems to me to be rather, effortless, when compared to MGS2.

I did however enjoy MGS3 as a game more than MGS2 apon my first playthrough, and at the time it did seem more appealing in terms of replay value. But when I replayed it, it's story flaws became more and more obvious to me. But when I replay MGS2, I enjoy picking up on all the allusions and hints towards the outcome of the game (<B>Patriots</B>, S3 etc.)
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Re: How do you think MGS3's storyline fares to MGS2?

Post by 87th »

Missing wrote:So did any of you really think MGS3's storyline was dumbed down in contrast to MGS2?
Yes


But the game is a different type of experience from MGS2. It didn't really hurt it.
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Post by Henry Spencer »

The Prince II wrote:I do think MGS2's is vastly superior to MGS3's. It has clearly been dumbed down after the sharp fan reaction to Raiden and the complicated MGS2 plot. MGS3 (now) seems to me to be rather, effortless, when compared to MGS2.

I did however enjoy MGS3 as a game more than MGS2 apon my first playthrough, and at the time it did seem more appealing in terms of replay value. But when I replayed it, it's story flaws became more and more obvious to me. But when I replay MGS2, I enjoy picking up on all the allusions and hints towards the outcome of the game (<B>La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo</B>, S3 etc.)
MGS3 is still a cinematic ride, courtesy of Kojima. I agree, I prefer MGS2's story by a long shot, but I still enjoy MGS3, if nothing more than for its visual presentation. The cutscenes, no matter how much the story gets dumbed down, you know it's a Kojima game, just like you would any film director's, it's very distinct.
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Post by Space Cowboy »

Let me just say, MGS2 is my personal favorite of the series. MGS3 is my least favorite. Based on a two reasons: The storyline didn't interest me all too much the second time around and the game didn't live up to my expectations. MGS2 was a masterpiece. MGS3, on the other hand, wasn't nearly as good.
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