Tim Rogers' MGS3 Review (reveals some interesting points)

Discussion related to the most well-known series by Kojima. News, debate and any related discussions are welcome. IMPORTANT Any topics related to MGS4 should temporarily go in the appropriate forum. Please keep spoilers out of signatures too.
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What would you have thought of this left out feature?

Would have loved it, I would have been better not knowing it was left out.
13
81%
Would have ruined the game for me
2
13%
Wouldn't make a difference at all for me.
1
6%
 
Total votes: 16

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Tim Rogers' MGS3 Review (reveals some interesting points)

Post by Artemio »

Well, he finally published his Metal Gear Solid 3 review (along side his complete review of the whole year). at the excellent Insert Creditsite.

There are several very interesting points to comment, I won't spoil it for those who haven't read it but he reveals a left out gameplay element I could discuss with Tim while at Tokyo, just the day before I met Kojima. Would have loved to see it, we had our fingers crossed.. but it was too far fetched and risky (maybe not as an extra element... but that way it would have lost it's touch anyway).
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Post by thagen »

That was a good read. About the left out gameplay element.. (i'm gonna go ahead and talk about it now, so read about it yourself first, if you want)


I think i would have liked it, though i'm sure there'd be a whole lot of frustration involved. I guess we'd have to play on an easier difficulty the first time through. It really wouldn't be that bad though, since when you know what to do and skip cutscenes, you can get anywhere pretty fast, and the game would be a lot more rewarding. And the adrenaline would be flowing as hell in a tough boss fight.

Another thing.. like it is now, i know a lot of people just die on purpose (or take a fake death pill) when they get spotted or mess up. Hell, i've been tempted to do that many times myself, and sometimes i do. There's no sense of danger and i miss that.

I would've really liked to see it, but like you said it's too risky, and most people would've absolutely hated it. It's funny, just this morning i was thinking about what Kojima said in an interview about wanting to create a game you can only play once. You get Game Over and the game will be destroyed, and you'd have to buy a new one. =]

This would be something similar to that, though not quite as harsh. I hope he'll do something like that some day.
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Post by ReasonWhyNot »

I had to cringe at the Orson Welles comparison. Seriously, comparing Citizen Kane to MGS3? What the fuck was he thinking? But regardless, I did agree with a large part of his review. The curing, eating, and camouflage systems really do put a damper on what would otherwise be as enjoyable an experience as the past iterations this series has offered. It really did feel as though Kojima didn't give these ideas his entire effort.

As for the big secret, I think it would have been an interesting idea. It might be a little too innovative though. Raiden is a seperate matter altogether from a game that deletes your saves after an instant death from falling into one of those bottomless pits. That's just a pain in the ass. Sure, play it safe, but accidents do happen. I don't want to be fighting The Boss, get killed, and have to start from the beginning again. I'd throw my damn system out the window. But I wouldn't oppose it until I tried it. Too bad the concept wasn't realized.
Last edited by ReasonWhyNot on Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Johnny Undaunted »

I don't think Kojima ever planned to use the "one-time-use" gimmick in MGS3. In fact, that review contains quite a few errors in them (Wolf is Iraqui, not Russian. Kojima didn't make Tokimemo, ect.).
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Post by 87th »

I, personally, would've loved it (as long as it didn't get rid of my copy of the game, just the save when I died). The first time I completed MetalGear 2 on my MSX2, I kept the machine on the whole time (the password system was impossible to use for someone who doesn't know the Japanese layout of the keyboard very well, and I don't have a floppy drive). There was kind of a desperate rush to complete it before the machine got too hot, as I was thought "If I don't do this soon, who knows what it'll do to my MSX", but also thought "If I turn this off, I'll have done all this for nothing!".
I think a simular (but advertantly, safer) twist on this, is if you could only die once. It really would've added to the whole survival theme of the game.
BTW- My MSX is fine, I loved the experience.
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Kojima actually spoke a long time ago about wanting to make a game that could only be used once, some kind of self destructing medium. I believe I read it in an Edge magazine; my point is that I think he may well have been ready to include this "ultimate game over" in MGS3. As we know, he's a man who has big ideas, and doesn't care how crazy other people think they are.
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Post by shoryuken_justice »

Reasonwhynot...
The left out gameplay item begins with the words "Know This:". I'd love to tell you here, but I'm sure someone would want to uphold the secrecy or something.



I'm not sure how I'd respond to it. I died alot in MGS. but I can think of a lot more games that it would be much more fatal (like GTA). Like 87th said, it would make the ending that much sweeter though (which is almost impossible, cuz that was the sweetest ending I've ever seen).

I guess I would support it. It would definitely increase the shelf life, as the Boss fucked me up big time quite a few times... in fact, so did Volgin, the Fury, and the Fear (until I realized how easy it was to beat him). Doing something like that would definitely turn off your mainstream videogame fan though, as upon hearing about it, he would just skip over it and go straight to Halo or GTA (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Alright stop.

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Post by ReasonWhyNot »

shoryuken_justice wrote:I'm not sure how I'd respond to it. I died alot in MGS. but I can think of a lot more games that it would be much more fatal (like GTA). Like 87th said, it would make the ending that much sweeter though (which is almost impossible, cuz that was the sweetest ending I've ever seen).
The only thing worse than restarting MGS3 from the beginning after dying at the end would be restarting the game for its terrible ending.
Last edited by ReasonWhyNot on Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Omega579 »

I think the concept would ultimately not work unless Kojima can devise a way to keep your memory card locked into your system and not allow you to make backup copies of your saves.
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Post by 87th »

Yeah, it'd hardly take long for people to start putting their saves on a second memory card. The only way it'd work is if the game could detect if it was a back-up save, or not.
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Post by Finalfantasy7 »

87th wrote:Yeah, it'd hardly take long for people to start putting their saves on a second memory card. The only way it'd work is if the game could detect if it was a back-up save, or not.
HAs anyone here played Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter ? That game has a save sytem that when you tranfer it over to a new memory card it does not work. It has somthing to do with how each save will have a special number that will connect it to the actual memory card. I am not eaxactly sure how it all works, but that game has a great save system.

When you come to a save point you will have to use a token to save there. But if you have to quit the game, you can do a quick save and take the game off. But when you load up the quick save gets deleted after you load up. So if you actually die then you will have to load all the way back near the permenat save that you had to use a token to save with.
A great save system, so you can quit anytime you want but also makes people very careful about how they fight because of the lack of lots of save points and tokens. I would assume Hideo Kojima's plan for MGS3 was somthing along that lines. Being able save, but when you load up it gets removed. But the trick with that is the game does not have to remove the whole save from the memory card. It can have a save data on the card, but the actual game save would be removed, but not the whole meory block if you understand what i am saying. That way, the remove of the save after loading would be very quick, plus it would alos keep away people from backing up that save on a second memory card.
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Post by Homalef »

I personally would have loved to see the no continue idea implemented. It would have made the game so much more intense, though I probably wouldn't have ever finished the game had no continuing been implemented. On normal difficulty, I had almost no problem making my way through the game; however, for some reason I had the hardest time with the final boss having died at least 30 times with 4 solid hours attempted.

I can definitely see that the game was designed with no continues as a thought, but in its current build, I don't think it would have worked too well. Maybe if certain aspects of gameplay were tweaked or if you were allowed more than one attempt at a boss fight, it would have been a more than welcome idea that would have once again turned the heads of the entire industry. I have no doubt if given a little more time to tweak some things and iron them out, Kojima and team would have pulled it off flawlessly. For a game that emphasizes survival, it would have been perfect.

One of my absolute favorite and yet unforgettable experiences ever with video games came about when my friend had just gotten his Sega Dreamcast and Resident Evil: Code Veronica. Getting a new game system as a gift of course is often accompanied by the classic mistake of not receiving a memory card with it. I will say this; playing Resident Evil the first time through without a memory card was simply the most intense game playing experience I've ever had. Actually, I wasn't even playing the game. My friend was the one playing and he had at least 5 other people huddled around him, including myself, completely drawn in by the game. Though, when he reached the boss at the end of the first disk, he got killed. Even though he had since picked up a memory card, he hasn't gone back to finish the game simply because he wouldn't be able to recreate that same experience.

This also serves as a perfect example as to why no continues in MGS3 might have been too risky a move and too much for many people. Thinking about it from a business perspective especially, implementing no continues into the game wouldn't really gain Konami anything, but it sure does leave the potential for loss. It could potentially piss off a lot of people and scare off others which would lead to lower sales numbers.

Either way, if done right, it's something I would have really enjoyed.
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Post by Jonathan Ingram »

The answer surely is something similar to MGS2's "Game Over if spotted?" option, a kind of "No Continues mode?" when you play, although of course the element of choice diminishes the impact of the mode, I can't see any other way it would have got in.
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Post by Crowley »

That feature doesn't really strike me as being all that special, but then again I've seen it done dozens of times in other games.
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Post by DarkTetsuya »

While it probably would've caused 100 times the controversy that Raiden did, though it might've been an interesting addition to Extreme difficulty (Since you'd have already beaten the game and seen everything in order to unlock it anyways.)

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Post by Ninja Kurosai »

Omega579 wrote:I think the concept would ultimately not work unless Kojima can devise a way to keep your memory card locked into your system and not allow you to make backup copies of your saves.
There is a way to lock the file, MK Deadly Alliance's files are like this (im not sure if Deception is too)
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Post by Rolman »

I would have loved this feature. The problem with it is that the mainstream gamers would have hated it, so the only way I see it could be possible to include it is by using a reward system for the hardcore players.

Examples:

Halo 2: I don't really dig this game, but technically the AI is awesome, the thing is that it only shows its true greatness in the highest difficulty level. Only the most hardcore will be able to play it like it's meant to, and enjoy an incredible technical feat.

Eternal Darkness: This is a great game, but the three endings are very similar. However, finishing it the third time will unlock a small cutscene where a big secret is revealed, one that twists the whole storyline.

So, one way to cleanly implement it the way Kojima wanted would be by combining these two things. An optional mode that enables this feature (possibly, but not necessarily linked to a difficulty level), and a reward system that unlocks something truly special, like a cutscene or alternate ending (and not just camos or items that actually make the game easier) only for those who cared to complete it that way.

Technically it's very easy to do it like originally planned, but I'd add a limit on saves so that there would be specific checkpoints in the game. This would defeat even the cheaters who have USB-enabled Memory Cards somewhat.

I think Kojima should've included it, the game would become more realistic and the survival theme enhanced =( Hey, even Resident Evil for the GCN had an optional, more realistic mode where the item chests in the mansion stop being universal (that is, now you can't store something at one chest and retrieve it from another one, you need to go back to the original), it was called Real Survivor mode and it was very tough, but very rewarding for RE fans (though it didn't unlock anything further upon beating).

Or maybe Kojima is planning it for a second, Integral/Substance-like edition? Damn, I already bought the game twice (JP and US) =P
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Snake's Revenge (NES) [European]
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MetalGear Solid 3: Snake Eater (PlayStation 2) [European]
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MetalGear AC!D2 (PSP) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [Japanese]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - Promo copy (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid 3: Subsistence - 1st Edition (PlayStation 2) [European]
MetalGear Solid: Digital Graphic Novel (PSP) [European]
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Post by 87th »

Rolman wrote: Or maybe Kojima is planning it for a second, Integral/Substance-like edition? Damn, I already bought the game twice (JP and US) =P
What's wrong with more? I've got 5 different versions of Sons Of Liberty! (PS2 SOL, PS2 PAL Substance, PS2 JP/NTSC Substance, XBox Substance, PC Substance)
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Post by Szczepaniak »

Good lord! :shock:

mild SPOILERS regarding this big secret:
I actually wrote a Steel Battalion essay just about a week ago on this very subject. It has been done before in Capcoms mech simulator. It would have been fairly easy to implement.

Also, Shenmue had quick saving where after saving you could switch the machine off, and when you resumed your quick save would be deleted during loading.

As to how much better it would have made MGS3, thats debatable. SB is one of the most terrifying games Ive played because of this feature. With the fear of losing your save file, it fundamentally changes how you play the game. It would also limit us in fooling around. I think it might actually beat SB in the terror stakes, since you wouldnt be able to eject in MGS3.

If anyone wants to read my steel battalion essay, it makes some pertinent points regarding such a saving mechanism:

http://www.steelbattalion.org/forum/vie ... php?t=1550

and yes, I am blatantly pimping my own work, so sue me! :razz:

The second thing:

Im not that big a fan of Tim Rodgers. he comes across as a pretentious name dropper, and I was told by someone that he tends to lead a very "Walter Mitty" lifestyle.... which makes me view all of his work through different eyes and with slight scepticism. I have no idea how seriously I should take him. Anyway, he does have a unique writing style, but Im about 50/50 with regards to his work. :???:
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DAMNNIT!

Post by TheChosenHana »

He took it down huh? i really desired to read that too! And that interview that was supposed to be published in Wired which i have a subscription for...all i seen was a preview by Mister Rogers-san! Did i just miss it and does things just go over my head?
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Post by fogleus »

i think it would have been a good addition to the game but leaving it a an option like the game of if spotted option.
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