I've been sitting on this for a while and finally decided to speak up. From the weird-ass Rose/Colonel/Raiden dialogue:
Colonel: "You're special." "Believe in yourself and you will succeed."
Rose: But it's obvious from the start that only a few can succeed...
A very small part, but that's utter bollocks. Check around for any psychological and sociological studies on the subject, and you'll find that people need to believe that they're special, better than avegare persons in order to be happy and producing members of society. Those who believe in their own mediocrity are often severely depressed (which I can personally confirm). Congratulations, GW(or JFK or <B>Patriots</B> or whatever)! Your "Selection for Societal Sanity" seems to bell well on the way to destroying the very thing that is it's objective!
One small thing about MGS2 ending
- Artemio
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Re: One small thing about MGS2 ending
Indeed. That is in order to be happy and producing members of society. Problem is that what they are talking about is society, and mainly capitalist society. It is simply part of the program to make it bigger, a snow ball effect. Obviously, if yo work against the system, the system works against you. Thus, depression is a common symptom. We create our own traps in the system, to make us work towards the geenral benefit, and use our own weakness against ourselves as safety lock.Crowley wrote:...in order to be happy and producing members of society...
I am not saying that we should not be part of society (if that is even possible), but if you look at it from outside the bounds, you'll figure how illogical it is. And how it sounds to the ears of logic too...
If I remember correctly they are speaking about the contradictions in our values and basic education... and how this makes us be better than the next guy, compete and at the same time they teach us to crush our neighbor but be kind to them.
Why do you believe we need to feel that? or better yet, Why do you feel we need to believe that?
That question might hold my point of view on the subject.. but I believe that it is there simply to reinforce the point. It does echo in my mind however because I kind of think that way... I do express some of those thoughts on how illogical our society is to me at my column .. (though I've hardly written in years).
And to make it clear.. I am not against or in favour of it being in the game, it is simply a reflection and a dialogue that you might find meaning or not into...neither I say you are wrong or right, this is a matter of manner of though.
Tyler Durden wrote: "We've all been raised by television to believe that one day,
we'll all be millionaires and movie gods and rock stars.
But we won't.
We are slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off"
From the mathematical perspective, consciousness might be regarded as a second derivative of sensation.
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- Nekura_Hoka
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I think the need to beleive that we're special in the way that Rose was talking about all stems from the change in our lives that came from industrialization. The job system has become so complex that it forces people to specialize what they do to an extreme degree. A person isn't a clockmaker anymore, that job has been split up into a thousand actions that takes hundreds of people working together (often in a mindless menial fashion) to accomplish. Becuase of the seemingly meaningless tedium of a lot of jobs out there, people have an increased need for a sense of individuality and self worth I think.
'Course, thats not true for everyone, but maybe it is for a lot of people.
'Course, thats not true for everyone, but maybe it is for a lot of people.
Re: One small thing about MGS2 ending
Because people who make a living studying stuff like that have said so. Shouldn't I beLIEve them? Vast majority of our knowledge comes from second-plus-hand sources. Anyways, the current western society (and pretty much the eastern too) is based on capitalism in which competition is pivotal. That brings us to the Fight Club quote:Snatcher wrote:Why do you believe we need to feel that? or better yet, Why do you feel we need to believe that?
Where would millionaires, movie gods and rock stars come from if nobody believes they can become that? That's what I've been wondering ever since I first heard that. Maybe I just can't relate to that since I've never been to America and watched the television there.Tyler Durden wrote: "We've all been raised by television to believe that one day,
we'll all be millionaires and movie gods and rock stars.
But we won't.
We are slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off"
What were the <B>Patriots</B> going for anyway? Some weird neo-communist society where they plan the economy without the need of competing everything?Dust Brothers from Fight Club soundtrack wrote: You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake
You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else
We are all part of the same compost heap
We are the all singing, all dancing, crap of the world
edit: And why the hell does the forum automatically replace P-A-T-R-I-O-T-S with Japanese syllables?
- Artemio
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My point is simple.. (sorry, I love trying to make other people to figure out my point of view by persenting data...)
I simply believe that if someone is happy by not having such recognition, or by being better that someone else, it is valid and great.
i simply believe in the individual.. and of course statistics and studies do help a lot, and are great guidelines... But just look around you. At how incredibly complex a world we have cerated. And how we believe in it. How we live for it. And we don't have time to enjoy watching a tree move with the wind, or placid rain falling over a lake while the clouds move. We don't have time to breathe and feel that air inside us, how alove we really are... To simple look at anotehr human being and find a friend in them that is in peace with the world as well.
I don't believe those quotes are true.
I simply believe they help, in a way, to valorate stuff in it's appropiate level. But it simply depends on everyone's values. If everybody believes they will be a millionare, a lot of them won't achieve it. Why? Because it is a "0 sum" model. Some guys loos so others can win. It is a society thatis "free" to do so, and for every unit of money you make, you are taking it from someone else.
Thsi shouldn't be either good or bad, it is simlpy the way things are in our system. But you can view it as a system and play in it, or as your life and live in it.
Both speeches seem derrotist. But I believe that what they are pointing is to simply: "you don't need to believe that, you can be happy without it too". And not in a comformist way, but in a way that tries to push other forms of living. maybe it doesn't propose much, but makes you try to get your own conclusions. It is simply trying to fight what media and society has put into everyones mind: If you don't succeed, you are nobody. It is up to every human being to live by that or not.
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And about the <B>Patriots</B>, it is simply a matter of how much trash information is out here without filtering. For me it is about saying that human beings need to be controlled to be happy, the same story as always in the new information context.
And yes, the forum does change the words, I just figured it would be a funny reference to MGS2 and to common beliefs.
I simply believe that if someone is happy by not having such recognition, or by being better that someone else, it is valid and great.
i simply believe in the individual.. and of course statistics and studies do help a lot, and are great guidelines... But just look around you. At how incredibly complex a world we have cerated. And how we believe in it. How we live for it. And we don't have time to enjoy watching a tree move with the wind, or placid rain falling over a lake while the clouds move. We don't have time to breathe and feel that air inside us, how alove we really are... To simple look at anotehr human being and find a friend in them that is in peace with the world as well.
I don't believe those quotes are true.
I simply believe they help, in a way, to valorate stuff in it's appropiate level. But it simply depends on everyone's values. If everybody believes they will be a millionare, a lot of them won't achieve it. Why? Because it is a "0 sum" model. Some guys loos so others can win. It is a society thatis "free" to do so, and for every unit of money you make, you are taking it from someone else.
Thsi shouldn't be either good or bad, it is simlpy the way things are in our system. But you can view it as a system and play in it, or as your life and live in it.
Both speeches seem derrotist. But I believe that what they are pointing is to simply: "you don't need to believe that, you can be happy without it too". And not in a comformist way, but in a way that tries to push other forms of living. maybe it doesn't propose much, but makes you try to get your own conclusions. It is simply trying to fight what media and society has put into everyones mind: If you don't succeed, you are nobody. It is up to every human being to live by that or not.
-----
And about the <B>Patriots</B>, it is simply a matter of how much trash information is out here without filtering. For me it is about saying that human beings need to be controlled to be happy, the same story as always in the new information context.
And yes, the forum does change the words, I just figured it would be a funny reference to MGS2 and to common beliefs.
From the mathematical perspective, consciousness might be regarded as a second derivative of sensation.
-- Terrel Miedaner
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- Nekura_Hoka
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I agree this is probably what was meant by this exchange.Snatcher wrote:For me it is about saying that human beings need to be controlled to be happy, the same story as always in the new information context.
I think your right on about people not having time to appreciate things. Personally, as a soldier, I get a lot of time to appreciate such things. Sometimes that's the only thing that keeps your mind occupied (during road marches, for instance).
I think that the <B>Patriots</B> opinion of humanity must ultimately be regarded as inescapably pessimistic. Given their stated goals and purpose, they cannot believe otherwise.
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What exactly is the problem with what Rose/Colonel say? It's perfectly true that people do believe in themselves, and believe they are special, but it is also true that only a few can succeed. That doesn't deny that people believe it, just that it is a statistical unlikelihood that you will succeed, to the degree that television/movies/pop media make out you could.Colonel: "You're special." "Believe in yourself and you will succeed."
Rose: But it's obvious from the start that only a few can succeed...
A very small part, but that's utter bollocks. Check around for any psychological and sociological studies on the subject, and you'll find that people need to believe that they're special, better than avegare persons in order to be happy and producing members of society. Those who believe in their own mediocrity are often severely depressed (which I can personally confirm). Congratulations, GW(or JFK or la li lu le lo or whatever)! Your "Selection for Societal Sanity" seems to bell well on the way to destroying the very thing that is it's objective
Of course the <B>Patriots</B> will not openly say that to society, as they do want them to be controllable. They are just highlighting the ridiculous human contradictions that make humans "unfit" to control their own information.
"But nothing is permanent... only change"
Just for the record maybe I should say that I don't actually believe most of the views I've presented here. I personally detest competition and the central function it has in current society a great deal. Thinking about this stuff I tend to get that image of the poster from X-files in my mind. "I want to believe", but that's hard when it seems like the world around you is constantly trying to prove your beliefs wrong.
Maybe I'm working against my own words here, but I think there's a definite difference between considering yourself better than average and better than some specific persons. Psychology is great for cataloguing phenomena, but explaining those is the hard part.
Damn, I don't really know what I'm saying anymore.
Ah, yes. The <B>Patriots</B> seems like the classic big brother scenario. Filtering information for the people instead of having them learn themselves to process information and separate the important stuff. They could learn to think on their own and we can't have that now, can we?
And while we're quoting games, I remembered this from the end of Deus Ex:
Maybe I'm working against my own words here, but I think there's a definite difference between considering yourself better than average and better than some specific persons. Psychology is great for cataloguing phenomena, but explaining those is the hard part.
Damn, I don't really know what I'm saying anymore.
Ah, yes. The <B>Patriots</B> seems like the classic big brother scenario. Filtering information for the people instead of having them learn themselves to process information and separate the important stuff. They could learn to think on their own and we can't have that now, can we?
And while we're quoting games, I remembered this from the end of Deus Ex:
Kahlil Gibran wrote:Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth.